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The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

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Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#261

Post by gimmeThaBeet »

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #106
e12e wrote: post #7

Is it? I found this linked from uaw.org: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-why-i-strike-201...

>We made sacrifices, froze our pensions, halved our pay and gave up benefits to save GM, the automotive industry, and the U.S. economy. These people think they saved the U.S economy? What are they smoking. They still us the government 11.3 billion dollars from the government bailing them out.[1] >GM also chose to rip away our health care coverage in the dead of night, effective immediately and without warning. This i…

Yeah, once again it feels weird in my mind that the shareholder-class needs defending, but in GM's particular case, they went bankrupt. The UAW didn't save that company, they're gone.

The UAW definitely made sacrifices to put new GM on solid footing. But my opinion is that the tough truth is that I don't think you can readily expect things to go back to GM 1.0, ever.

It's just tough to assess how much GM genuinely acting on what it feels are existential threats. I will readily admit, I'm sympathetic to the company making hard to swallow decisions in its long term interests.

I'm just thinking, if GM fails again, that's going to do zero good for the UAW, and I really feel like the UAW isn't taking that seriously enough.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#262

Post by momokoko »

Judgmentality wrote: post #247
swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that maintenance is a large part of the pie that will be lost to electric. Here's an unfounded but different perspective: Electric's reliability and return on investment will only make the transportation industry that much more profitable, and the amount of transportation will only increase as time goes on. The total size of the pie will increase. Maintenance will still be needed, especially on many generatio…

I am genuinely curious, when has a company deliberately making a stark pivot in offering better reliability for a product line led to better sustained profits? This is not a rhetorical question - I genuinely want people to provide me with examples. I suspect it is very rare that this happens, but hope I'm wrong.

Mercedes Benz? It's actually very common. It's just that the recent trend in private equity is to cash in past reputation for short term profits.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#263

Post by insulanus »

Animats wrote: post #102

It's not clear that electric cars will take less labor to build. Tesla's experience is that their cars take far more labor to build than Ford or Toyota or VW needs to build a car.[1] Even the battery pack operation is surprisingly labor-intensive. Automobile engine building, on the other hand, has been mostly automated since the 1950s. [11 https://www.autonews.com/article/20170611/OEM01/170619951/te...

That's because they are just starting out, and are still designing a lot of things from scratch.

Musk had to import two gigantic aluminium presses to stamp the car bodies, and Tesla was suffering a lot of ill fitting body panels initially. It's amazing what they've accomplished so quickly, but it's still early days.

Building these at the scale of GM, I can definitely imagine putting an electric one together with less work than a gasoline car with an automatic transmission.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#264

Post by imroot »

wigsby806 wrote: post #240
sheeshkebab wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Did you ever see an i-device get cheaper? Or a cheap car get even cheaper? There is a reason why wealth inequality has grown in recent decades, while manufacturing efficiencies increased.

The cheap car isn't the same cheap car though. Try finding a 2-door sedan with manual controls and an AM/FM radio. Even the cheapest new car has bluetooth entertainment controls and backup cameras. It also has airbags in every zone and a decent crash rating. Nobody produces the cheap base-model car of yore, if they did they could easily do so for well under 10k. But that doesn't support the bottom line especially whe…

The NHTSA has mandated backup cameras in all vehicles sold in the US as of 2018, I believe.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#265

Post by clomond »

dlp211 wrote: post #258
myrandomcomment wrote: post #256

On a personal note, I will not buy another gas car. My wife drove a Model X the other day (hates it). Now looking at an iPace. I will keep my Boxster until I can buy the same thing with an electric motor. Need a car for my daughter soon and only looking at crash test ratings + EV. Gas is dead if you are middle class. I feel the infection point will be when you can get an EV for 20K. Next year, solar and power walls a…

The death of gas vehicles has been greatly exaggerated.

*The death of gas vehicles TODAY has been greatly exaggerated. Their upcoming doom, and expiry notice - has not.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#266

Post by w1nst0nsm1th »

Side note/joke...

If worldwide governments don't want to deal with a popular revolution in the next decade because of the huge change in employment due to major technology shift, they will have to pay for an universal revenue comprising a monthly Steam susbscription plan.

Better keep people busy if we don't want them to revolt and bear arms or vote for suckers like Trump and the likes.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#267

Post by clomond »

brownbat wrote: post #107

China has over ten different companies making EVs under $14,000. If EVs were more like commodity electronics products and less niche, if there were broad competition, things could change faster than anyone expects. There are a lot of entrenched stakeholders in the US though. UAW, dealerships, policy will control the outcome more than technology for a while. https://wattev2buy.com/china-ev-price-list-rank-chinese-elec…

While this is technically true, many of the EVs sold at that price in China (especially at the lower end) more closely resemble fully encased modern golf carts then the actual "Electric Cars" many would expect. On top of this, very, very poor quality production and low quality/longevity of some Chinese EV batteries has meant that, even still "You get what you pay for."

It was this poor level of quality that made the Chinese government try to entice competition within the space by pulling back EV subsidies.

Links that are somewhat related: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-26/china-sca... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-26/china-sca...

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#268

Post by Spooky23 »

Judgmentality wrote: post #247
swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that maintenance is a large part of the pie that will be lost to electric. Here's an unfounded but different perspective: Electric's reliability and return on investment will only make the transportation industry that much more profitable, and the amount of transportation will only increase as time goes on. The total size of the pie will increase. Maintenance will still be needed, especially on many generatio…

I am genuinely curious, when has a company deliberately making a stark pivot in offering better reliability for a product line led to better sustained profits? This is not a rhetorical question - I genuinely want people to provide me with examples. I suspect it is very rare that this happens, but hope I'm wrong.

Honda and Toyota are the reference models for this premise. They completely owned multiple segments by offering a better quality product.

Hyundai is another more recent-ish example. Hyundai cars were absolute garbage for a long time, they improved but the market didn’t know. So they their money where their mouth was by offering a 100k warranty. (Audi did something similar in the 80/90s).

I’d be cautious in assuming that electric cars will be better. Scheduled maintenance is reduced, but there are plenty of quality and repair issues with Tesla as evidenced by consumer reports. Unscheduled maintenance is still a factor of assembly and engineering quality.

Also, from a cost POV, franchise laws aren’t going away right away. So the price of that ICE maintenance dealer margin is going to be baked in, or the dealers won’t move the cars.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#269

Post by darawk »

TomMckenny wrote: post #245
zizee wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No it's about money and who gets it. > Owners are pushing for the first, labor wants anything except the first. There are two important actors left out of this analysis: consumers and parts suppliers. It doesn't fit the evil owner narrative, but often these efficiency gains translate largely to reduced prices for consumers. Consumers vote with their wallets, so it is often the case that unless the evil owners consp…

>There are two important actors left out of this analysis: consumers and parts suppliers. This is indeed plausible and has happened for other commodities but note: 1) since the model-T, inflation adjusted consumer prices for automobiles have never dropped and 2) car manufacturers have historically replicated or bought any serious profit centers in their supply chain. >Evil Shareholders act in their interest, employee…

> This is indeed plausible and has happened for other commodities but note: 1) since the model-T, inflation adjusted consumer prices for automobiles have never dropped and 2) car manufacturers have historically replicated or bought any serious profit centers in their supply chain.

While that may be true, the word 'car' is hiding all of the consumer surplus. Cars are not simply repackaged model Ts. Todays cars are orders of magnitude better in myriad ways than a model T. The fact that the price merely hasn't dropped in inflation adjusted terms really means nothing here. What consumers are getting for their money has increased dramatically.

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