The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#251

Post by remotecool » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

unions stifle innovation and prevent advancements in technology. They keep factories full of multiple workers doing the job of one person.

The taxicab unions wanted to keep a medallion system in place and have pushed Uber and Lyft out of many cities, which will result in higher fares and less efficiency with the routes.

It reminds me of the record industry, trying to prevent things like Napster and the digital music revolution, because they didn't want to switch over from physical media.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#252

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:21 AM UTC

swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #231

Consultant32452 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll have a much harder time convincing women to not base sexual selection, at least in part, on resource gathering. That's pretty ingrained, and not just culture.

Then men will continue trying, as they have since time immemorial.

Exactly. A cultural change is big, but this is even bigger than culture, it's hard wired in our genes since before humans even became a species. So there will never be a magical fairy land where people just accept equal economic outcomes gifted to us by the robots. So we have to start there and figure out a different solution, the suggested solution is a nonstarter.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#253

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:23 AM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #213

woodandsteel wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think I am wrong, then it would be helpful if you explained what you think the truth is.

Self driving cars and rental instead of ownership is at least 15 to 20 years out.

Much longer for something that is safe outside the So-Cal weather environment.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#254

Post by insulanus » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

Absolutely. But we can't look at workers in a dying industry like coal mining and say "Hey, your industry is dead. Time to re-train. Hop to it!"

The society that benefited from having these workers should give them time, money and resources to retrain. Some of these people have their identity wrapped up in their job (as you allude to), so the psychological jump may be the most difficult of all.

Maybe we should have insurance for large industries that are essential to society (I can't see how that could go wrong!) ;)

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#255

Post by ericmay » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:55 AM UTC

thephyber wrote: post #112

ericmay wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A scenario would be something like you and your entire family live somewhere, and you make a good income that allows you to have a decent life, and now that income stream is gone and you’re expected to retrain after who knows how long to “learn 2 code” and then somehow get another high-paying job. What go back to college? A coding boot camp? Uproot you’re family to move to San Francisco and compete with 20 year old k…

I agree that it's an unreasonable expectation for the average West Virginia former coal miner late in life to "Learn 2 Code" in San Francisco. But the guy that sits next to me in my webdev job did exactly that (family of 6, middle-aged, moved from working in "business" in Texas, went to a coding bootcamp for 3 months, we hired him, now he's the hardest working programmer in the office). I'm not inclined to feel sorry…

> It's not our jobs as taxpayers to maintain coal miners' "way of life".

When you legislate the job away for the benefit of society you have an obligation.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#256

Post by myrandomcomment » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

On a personal note, I will not buy another gas car. My wife drove a Model X the other day (hates it). Now looking at an iPace. I will keep my Boxster until I can buy the same thing with an electric motor. Need a car for my daughter soon and only looking at crash test ratings + EV. Gas is dead if you are middle class. I feel the infection point will be when you can get an EV for 20K. Next year, solar and power walls are planned (tried this year but just not enough sun, but so close).

From an auto worker standpoint the writing is on the wall. EVs have less parts, less complexity and that means less people and more robots. We as a nation, heck as a planet, need to think about how we are going to live when the manual labor need drops year over year. This is going to hurt China the most I think. I know at my last employer we started with production lines in China, but with in 5 years we moved to Malaysia due to lower cost and the fact that we figured out how to make the assembly less complex and needed less manual labor.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#257

Post by clouddrover » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #242

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

It isn't just happening in the US, manufacturing of cars is going to be hard hit in other countries. EU manufacturers aren't exactly tripping over themselves to go EV, VW claims it is but looking at its schedule and its still damn slow. they have to answer to their unions who have board seats and the know that EVs will gut jobs. it will clobber more that just the manufacture of the cars and those jobs but also all th…

> VW claims it is but looking at its schedule and its still damn slow.

Is it? How many EV models will be available from Volkswagen next year?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#258

Post by dlp211 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:04 AM UTC

myrandomcomment wrote: post #256

On a personal note, I will not buy another gas car. My wife drove a Model X the other day (hates it). Now looking at an iPace. I will keep my Boxster until I can buy the same thing with an electric motor. Need a car for my daughter soon and only looking at crash test ratings + EV. Gas is dead if you are middle class. I feel the infection point will be when you can get an EV for 20K. Next year, solar and power walls a…

The death of gas vehicles has been greatly exaggerated.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#259

Post by clouddrover » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:06 AM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

> At the extreme you have factory workers who are just in denial. "How can electricity have more power than gas?"

This sounds more like mythology than reality. Can you show me some concrete examples of this to back your claim?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#260

Post by insulanus » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:12 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #195

kennywinker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even coming from a place of no empathy for displaced workers lives, if we hang these people out to dry we will pay the price down the line. If america had invested in a social safety net for the past 30-40 years, we might be in a different place. People would be ok with change because they'd know that society was going to have their back while they find a new career.

I don’t understand the comment “if American had invested in a social safety net”. Half of govt expenditures are for the social safety net. Would be more accurate to say “if America had expanded the social safety net”.

"if American had invested in an effective social safety net”