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Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

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Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#261

Post by smhost »

fouric wrote: post #238
stjohnswarts wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't "just trying to damage the NSA", he was trying to get the truth out about surveillance, the fact that the NSA was damaged was tangential and they shouldn't have been spying on US citizens. The NSA and other gov police entities were basically breaking half the dictates and the entire spirit of the US Constitution.

Your words do nothing to counter the argument of the comment you were replying to. The fact that the vast majority of the documents leaked were completely unrelated to domestic surveillance is as strong an indicator as we can get that he was specifically trying to damage the NSA, and any claims otherwise are PR.

drone strikes on people based on heuristics over metadata was the kind of logic that was operating at the highest levels of the intelligence apperatus, and not even congresspeople assigned to intel committees were aware of it.

people should know about the kind of insane stupidity that they get up to overseas that make the country less safe. or what, do you really think that that kind of stuff is what's keeping the terrorists from doing another 9/11?

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#262

Post by godelski »

make3 wrote: post #235
empath75 wrote: post #138

I think the administration badly, badly mishandled Snowden and Assange, and allowed Russia to coopt them by isolating and threatening them. If they had treated them as whistleblowers and journalists (even if they had nefarious motivations), they could have kept them in "the west" instead of driving them into the arms of Russia. I don't believe that Assange was a Russian agent at the beginning but he was surely one by…

I believe he is a hero and did the right thing, but I think there is no way the US could do anything but try to put in prison someone who illegally made state secrets public. That would have set the precedent that anyone with secret bad looking intelligence about the US would be safe to come out with it. Turns out I'm sure that there is a lot of intelligence that looks quite bad for the US.

There are in fact whistleblower laws. The big question at hand is how it was handled. Snowden claimed to go to his superiors first, which checks off an important box. So the question is if he did that or not. I believe he was also supposed to attempt to report to Congress before he can legally go to the media. It's definitely a gray area and if you believe it is right probably depends on how much you trust the government and moral factors.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#263

Post by EpicEng »

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #255
EpicEng wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the subsequently worked at the behest of the Russian goverment to push their agenda, yes. Honestly are you even reading what I'm typing?

Well, then I suppose it was indeed a PR stunt for the Russians to accept South African farmers, and they are according to your logic indeed Russian Agents! That is assuming a PR campaign pushes an agenda, and I would argue it does.

There is a difference between and unwitting pawn, especially in a circumstance like that, and someone who acts with full knowledge as to what they're doing. I don't understand why this is difficult.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#264

Post by Synaesthesia »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #153

This made me realize I have heard ZERO news on Assange after his arrest, and the likelihood of him being tortured and rendered and railroaded of course means our nation (US) of laws and rights is a sham. Don't tell me it's boring, this should be a sideshow for the media like OJ. Rape trial? Russian meddling? Little guy vs the government? International intrigue? Crickets. A truly independent media would be tracking hi…

You read about him on progressive media, some principled journalists. But nowhere in the mainstream news

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#265

Post by Synaesthesia »

wannabcodr wrote: post #186

Anyone have a link to steal and read the book for free? I don’t support his cause but wouldn’t mind reading the book. Yes I’m admitting to intent to pirating Ed Snowden’s book. It’s not like I’d be stealing sensitive military secrets and selling them to Omidyar for a pledge up to $250MM. How many Russian speaking people were in his orbit in Hawaii from 2011-2013? How many of them had the operational capacity to pull…

How about you answer some of your own questions.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#267

Post by Synaesthesia »

bdhess wrote: post #258
loup-vaillant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Correct. Snowden is a Whistle-blower. Assange is a journalist, though perhaps not the kind Snowden would have trusted his stolen data with.

I think calling Assange a journalist is very debatable. He certainly doesn’t comply with the ethical norms of the profession.

People say this on this basis of hearsay, like he “selectively released documents” for which there is no evidence.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#268

Post by Miner49er »

pstuart wrote: post #251
loup-vaillant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Correct. Snowden is a Whistle-blower. Assange is a journalist, though perhaps not the kind Snowden would have trusted his stolen data with.

Assange is an attention whore. I had such high hopes for wikileaks but it was, in the end, a vehicle for him to promote himself.

You think Assange put himself at as much risk as he did to promote himself?

He spent 7 years locked in an embassy (to great detriment to his health and was arguably worse then jail), is now in jail, and is facing at least life in prison, if not the death penalty. You really think he did all that just to promote himself and for some attention?

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#269

Post by CWuestefeld »

dahdum wrote: post #243
kerkeslager wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the Cold War, the US government did a lot of things which were extraordinarily harmful to US Citizens and contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism. Soviet totalitarianism was certainly a threat, but US repsonses to Soviet totalitarianism were often counterproductive. There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever…

> There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contac…

While it happened after the end of the USSR, we know that the NSA contrived to get a crypto system they knew to be weak standardized. And that weakness was later leveraged by hackers in at least one case.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#270

Post by tasogare »

slg wrote: post #200
stjohnswarts wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't "just trying to damage the NSA", he was trying to get the truth out about surveillance, the fact that the NSA was damaged was tangential and they shouldn't have been spying on US citizens. The NSA and other gov police entities were basically breaking half the dictates and the entire spirit of the US Constitution.

What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? I was a big fan of Snowden until he started doing that. That isn't whistleblowing against Constitutional violations and seemed to indicate a shift in his objectives. It now appears that he is just against US spying at large, which is a perfectly acceptable political opinion to have, but it doesn't justify whis…

As a European citizen I’m very glad that Snowden reveled the depth of US surveillance over the world. It may have not benefited US citizens, but it had removed US surveillance from conspiracy theories to put it on a list of facts and I’m very glad for it.
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