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NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#261
post #189
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My god, you're bitter for a startup founder! As a veteran founder myself, I'd be excited: this brings talent to fuel my startup, this brings interactive infrastructure, etc. Amazon and Google are not regular employers: your startup pays outlets in taxes and mooches off infrastructure. The big companies find that with real profits. Finally, $48k/employee is peanuts to a big city startup, and typically that kind of mon…

We're literally giving New York tax money to the richest man in the world, who lives somewhere else, instead of spending it on the subway, or parks, or schools, or literally anything. If you're not outraged you're not paying attention. As it happens I don't have a Silicon Valley venture backed profitless startup, I have a company that gets paid money to do work and makes a healthy profit. I've paid very considerable…

Richard Wolff in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 does a good job of concisely making the points on just how bad a deal this is for New York and Virginia (which are together funding over half of the costs of this project -- $5.5B versus Amazon's $5B according to the New York Times) -- and all for an estimated 2,500 jobs in New York. Here's what he said:

This is a shocking display. What they are calling a government-private partnership is nothing of the sort. It's a public subsidy to Amazon. The New York Times reported $5 billion in this project will be invested by Amazon. $5.5 billion dollars will be invested by New York and Virginia. That is a subsidy of over 50% of the cost of this project. We the taxpayers will be either paying higher taxes to fund this private company, among the richest in the world, or, if we don't get our taxes raised, the government will deliver fewer services to us because it has given this enormous subsidy to a company. $5 billion from Virginia and New York where Mr. Bezos, the owner of Amazon, is himself the owner of $160 billion. He didn't need it, the company doesn't need it. We are being asked to subsidize. All of the profits will go to the private companies and their shareholders. We, the public, will be funding more than half of this project. Shame is what Mr. DeBlasio ought to feel rather than posing in the PR as if he has delivered something. [...]

The projected number of jobs in the New York area from this is 2,500. That's a very small number and will have no effect on the unemployment problem of this city [New York City] it's just too small and that's not a surprise [...] because the kind of work Amazon does is highly automated; it uses machines for 90% of what it does. And half of the people it's likely to have working in New York will be brought in from other parts of the Amazon empire.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#262
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let people build more housing so rents don't rise.

Housing is going up like crazy in New York, it's just not affordable.

That's because the city doesn't let people build enough new supply. THAT'S REALLY BAD. And it's the fault of city government, not Amazon or any other company.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#264
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech hasn't been kind to Seattle or SF. Maybe to the people attracted likely to be filling this jobs, but not to the people in the surrounding areas. LIC was mostly warehouses at one point and you're right a lot of the new units are housing for people moving away from Manhattan. But the concern is not just about LIC; it's about Corona, Astoria, Jackson Heights. These are areas with a lot of immigrant communities, com…

No, NIMBYs haven't been kind to Seattle or SF. You are attributing the unkindness to the symptom, not the problem.

The proof of this is what happened elsewhere. the Dallas and Houston metro areas grew more in each of the last two decades the Bay Area has grown total since 1980. But prices haven’t skyrocketed because development has been permitted.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#265
post #32

1) Incentives are not given up front. They are given proportional to the results Amazon has achieved. Amazon must make a report each year detailing their progress before any award is given. 2) The city-level incentives are available to any business. State-level incentives (I think 300m) are not. 3) Amazon has pledged to invest in the local community as part of the deal. There are plans for an elementary school and te…

What about the externalities and expenses pointed out in a prior thread [0], specifically the ones not helped by federal funds in this post [1]? Will Amazon help to pay for the transit and housing required by their move? Because they're sure paying less than they would have if not for the incentives. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18443624 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18445241

> Will Amazon help to pay for the transit and housing required by their move

In a sense, it will, in the form of the salaries it will pay to the employees using said housing and transit.

One might say that MTA operates at a loss and is subsidized, but this is a known problem of MTA being anything but frugal.

Realty prices in NYC / Brooklyn / Queens are not exactly low, and new construction is incessant everywhere (which is good). Paying renters or even buyers, the new Amazon employees, will finance their part of that.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the opposite. The tax gains out number the tax breaks 3 to 1. Each one of these $150k jobs will net NY state $13.8k of income tax per year and (at least) $2500 of sales tax. The tax break per job is $4800 per year (the $48k figure you may have seen is over ten years).

The tax gains would always outnumber the tax cost for any business, which is why the city government is favoring corporate over small business, that employ way more people for a lot less monopoly rents.

Maybe not:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/11/property-tax-dark-sto...

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if the numbers are so small, why does it matter that this tax deal exists then. I think most of the hate is fueled by emotional anger at the rich due to increasing inequality in the USA, even though this investment in NYC is a positive for it when you look at it rationally.

How does it help anybody outside NYC?

To what extent should that be a major concern of NY legislators?

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#269
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously the only winners here are corrupt politicians and greedy Amazon execs. They should all be jailed. You can dislike tax incentives if you want to, but the hyperbole is so over the top it becomes radical, divisive, noise. We need less of this in these discussions.

The division is real and worsening. It's not an imaginary concept that we can choose not to discuss.

Discussing can be productive.

Calling for a blanket incarceration of legislators and Amazon executives is not.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#270
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same argument could be made for the USA by individual states having different income and sales taxes. That's just as bad as Irelands tricks helping to avoid taxes due in the UK and other eu states

Well, it's hard to know the details.. But in the EU these kinds of incentives are generally illegal. As they are anti-competitive. Which is also why we see the EU go after Ireland and require that they collect taxes from Amazon :) I recall Vestager starting to get the ball rolling a few years ago.

Companies negotiate tax treatments of contemplated activities all the time ahead of time with individual EU member states.

https://www.duijntax.com/en/advance-tax-rulings-negotiations as just one example reference I could quickly find.

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