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Apple deprecates Java

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple deprecates Java

#261

Post by mikedanko »

acdha wrote: post #185
grav1tas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stuff like this isn't really that bad for devs who use the platform. Devs (should) have the ability to pull down the replacement in this situation when the time comes. It's going to be harder on the end user that no longer gets why his/her Java application no longer works right.

What end-user Java applications are there for OS X? The only one which comes to mind is Crashplan but I'm sure it's lurking around in other places.

Folks have mentioned Eclipse as an IDE, but there's also Eclipse as a platform. I have three Eclipse RCP apps I use for visualization daily.

I also manage a lot of equipment that requires java webstart to load a configuration GUI to accomplish tasks that would be darn near impossible at a CLI or any other way.

I logged into Cisco TAC the other day. Requires Java for ticket management tasks.

I use some rf propagation tools for a hobby that are java apps.

I make frequent use of Deskzilla. Java app.

I could go for days. I won't.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#262

Post by AndrewS »

ghurlman wrote: post #124
AndrewS wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have any experience with Mono on macs?

MonoMac has been around for a little while, but MonoMac + the OSX App Store are firmly in Miguel De Icaza and team's sights: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Oct-20-1.html

Thanks for the info

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#263

Post by invertedlambda »

loumf wrote: post #234
invertedlambda wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I doubt programmers make up a huge % of Mac sales either to be honest" You sure? It'd be interesting to see the results of an HN poll on this.

The install base of Mac is 50 million. http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/10/20/apple-cfo-tim-cook... There are about 9 million programmers in the world (heard this from Joel at BoS 2 weeks ago -- not sure if it's true, or if I am remembering correctly). If 50% of devs have a mac (way overestimate), we make up less than 10% of the users. Now ... how many of us need Java?

Well...Java maybe not so much.

But we all know the only reason to buy a Mac is that we look great when using it to write our Rails apps! :P

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#264

Post by JulesLt »

jdub wrote: post #3

Note that they've only deprecated their own Java runtime .

I think this comment is spot on. Their own bespoke XWin was replaced by X.Org in 10.5 - well strictly by XQuartz. The Apple Java runtime has already been moving closer to the standard Sun one (i.e. default renderer was switched over to Sun's a couple of versions ago).

My guess is that we'll either see Oracle take back support for shipping a version, or Apple contributing to OpenJDK (like they do with X.Org) - having A version of Java available on OS X is necessary - but for the most part it is as a web server for developers, not for native GUI development - and it is the latter point where the differences are.

(Also doesn't SWT use a different approach to the same native look-and-feel end?)

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#265

Post by riffraff »

stcredzero wrote: post #169
riffraff wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the one I just wrote you about

What problem did that specific bit of GC pressure cause you? (I'm doing "5 whys" in reverse. Otherwise known as "The Socratic Method.")

sorry I thought I replied yesterday but apparently my comment got lost.

Using a (hash)set instead of a bloom filter caused memory usage to explode, which in turn led to memory thrashing/swapping which in turn led to slow processing times.

The rest of the code runs in constant time (well, linear in the size of the item, with num(items) >> size(items[n]) ) and it did work fine for smaller inputs.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#266

Post by stcredzero »

riffraff wrote: post #265
stcredzero wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What problem did that specific bit of GC pressure cause you? (I'm doing "5 whys" in reverse. Otherwise known as "The Socratic Method.")

sorry I thought I replied yesterday but apparently my comment got lost. Using a (hash)set instead of a bloom filter caused memory usage to explode, which in turn led to memory thrashing/swapping which in turn led to slow processing times. The rest of the code runs in constant time (well, linear in the size of the item, with num(items) >> size(items[n]) ) and it did work fine for smaller inputs.

How much slower? Just how much wall clock time did you lose?

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#267

Post by riffraff »

stcredzero wrote: post #266
riffraff wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry I thought I replied yesterday but apparently my comment got lost. Using a (hash)set instead of a bloom filter caused memory usage to explode, which in turn led to memory thrashing/swapping which in turn led to slow processing times. The rest of the code runs in constant time (well, linear in the size of the item, with num(items) >> size(items[n]) ) and it did work fine for smaller inputs.

How much slower? Just how much wall clock time did you lose?

hard to estimate I'm sorry. The first naive implementation had been running for more than 15 minutes before I thought it as too much and killed it. Rewrote version run all in about 5.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#269

Post by koenigdavidmj »

Tamerlin wrote: post #141
masklinn wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That means Apple can extend them all they want without ever giving you, or their competition, any sources. It mostly means that they can use the libraries without having to open-source Xcode itself. A compiler is not exactly a competitive advantage for a company as big as Apple. > And yes, GCC is a very hard thing to integrate into tools and it's that way by design. Uh yes and?

"A compiler is not exactly a competitive advantage for a company as big as Apple." Apple might not make money directly with its compiler, but for its 3rd party developers to be stuck with a mediocre compiler is definitely a disadvantage for Apple. Hypothetical: The hardware under the hood is identical to that of a Dell. Compare an application written for both, but the one running on the Dell uses Intel's highly optim…

Somewhat of an aside, but because Apple jumped to x86 late in the game, they can make more assumptions about their CPU than Windows can (for example, all Intel processors on Macs have SSE2 or higher).

64-bit processors allow similar assumptions on Windows, too.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#270

Post by loumf »

dhosek wrote: post #248
loumf wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The install base of Mac is 50 million. http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/10/20/apple-cfo-tim-cook... There are about 9 million programmers in the world (heard this from Joel at BoS 2 weeks ago -- not sure if it's true, or if I am remembering correctly). If 50% of devs have a mac (way overestimate), we make up less than 10% of the users. Now ... how many of us need Java?

At my employer, I would guess that 60-70% of the developers use Macs, all doing Java. I've seen similar numbers at other places I've worked.

Java shops use Java -- that's definitely true. But, are there enough of them for Apple to care? Apple doesn't make their own Python, PHP or Perl, and I bet a lot of Python, PHP and Perl devs use macs. I do for Python.
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