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Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

theguardian.com

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Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#261

Post by hw »

jdietrich wrote: post #154
vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

"A lot of people bemoan the plastic wrapping on cucumbers, but that wrapping doubles the shelf life of the product. It's a net win, because the environmental impact of wasted cucumbers is far greater than the environmental impact of a gram or two of polyethylene wrapping."

A gram or two, multiplied by millions of cucumbers and other food products wrapped in plastic. We produce more than we need to consume. Grocery stores are buying more produce and wasting more, and farmers are growing more.

CO2 emissions is a big problem, but so are plastics. Just because one produces more CO2 than the other doesn't mean we can't tackle both problems together. And the issue of plastics is not that of CO2.

Plastics are useful - I agree. However they are overused not for their usefulness, but for convenience. Produce doesn't need to be wrapped in plastic in grocery stores. Restaurants need not use plastics for takeout orders. Iced drinks don't need to be contained in plastic cups, nor do they require straws. Plastic bags are absolutely unnecessary, and there are other alternatives that work just as well.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#262

Post by njarboe »

dd36 wrote: post #254
riantogo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on jdietrich's input, it is then a waste processing problem and not a plastic problem. Tackling the symptom in this case seems net more harmful.

By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical. Humans don't dispose of things properly. That's a fact. Creating more plastic waste will create more plastic pollution. It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste. Again, producers don't plastic wrap cucumbers to save CO2. T…

At least some cultures are amenable to training not to litter everywhere. In the US there was a big campaign in the 1970's and 80's to reduce litter on roadsides and other places. $1000 fines and a general positive attitude to group action has reduced litter in most places in the US that a yearly or less pickup schedule can keep even urban highways pretty clean. Monthly street sweeping elsewhere does the job. I don't see (much) plastic litter in the landscape in the US. In other countries, maybe other methods are needed.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#263

Post by jdietrich »

rmk wrote: post #230
jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

This is the type of comment that keeps me coming back to hacker news! Where did you get this information? Books? Care to share recommendations?

If you only read one book on the subject, read Dr David MacKay's Sustainable Energy Without The Hot Air. It clearly explains how we use energy, how we produce it and how we can sustainably match supply and demand. It gave me an intuitive understanding of energy, using quick order-of-magnitude calculations to figure out the really important issues. It's written from a British perspective, but the principles are universally applicable. Best of all, it's completely free to read online.

https://www.withouthotair.com/

I'd also highly recommend Factfulness by Hans Rosling. It reveals that most Westerners have a grossly distorted and irrationally pessimistic image of the world. It's not really about energy or environmentalism, but it fills a vital gap in our common understanding of the future - the immense, unstoppable rise of the global middle-class. Once you internalise the idea that there is no great divide between the "first world" and the "third world", everything else looks very different. A majority of the world's population are neither very poor nor very rich, which presents a completely different set of challenges with respect to sustainable energy and climate change.

https://www.gapminder.org/factfulness-book/

My other recommendation would be to make good use of Google Scholar and SciHub. A large proportion "debates" I see aren't really debates at all, because the key points being argued are incorrect or irrelevant. Scientific research doesn't necessarily give us answers, but it can stop us from arguing over stupid questions.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#264

Post by njarboe »

buckminster wrote: post #252
scotchmi_st wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really great point that deserves to be it's own comment, rather than a reply to another. The two greatest challenges facing us in the next few years are climate change and water usage. Plastic is an issue, but it's not a life-or-death-for-the-species problem. We can figure plastic out later. We already are discovering bacteria and other organisms that can digest plastics. It seems to me we have a kind of li…

> As long as plastics are disposed responsibly in ways that don't damage plants and animals, what's the issue? But they are not disposed of responsibly. Fish sold for human consumption increasingly contain plastic microparticles, which bind toxins. The oceans already contain a vast amount of macro plastic which is disintegrating into microparticles and will be basically impossibly to remove. This is new, it's getting…

Seems to me the only way that wild fish will survive is if they become toxic to human consumption and even then we will probably keep eating them (see Japan and mercury contaminated tuna).

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#265

Post by narag »

hw wrote: post #249
narag wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understood. Do you suggest that everybody carries their own cutlery to restaurants? Why? What's the relation with disposable stuff? Can't (don't most) restaurants have their own reusable stuff? I like plastic banning, as soon as it's in place all around, we'll see another non-contaminant material (only a little more expensive) replacing plastic.

I've seen restaurants where they serve most of their food in plastic containers even for dine in customers. Most poke places for example always use a plastic bowl that patrons just throw away after they're done, along with plastic cutlery. Some restaurants serve water in cups with a plastic straw, which is also totally unnecessary.

Oh, I see... that's very unfortunate. The only kind of "restaurant" that does this shit over here is McDonalds (and similar US franchises) and it makes me shake my head. Do you know what's infuriating? They're now going all "green" in some spots. But instead of avoiding creating all the trash to begin with, they put it on you, providing four of five different cans for every type of trash, and patronizing signs on the walls so you work for them classifying and cleaning their shit.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#266

Post by alexsb92 »

ryanianian wrote: post #220
jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

The decision to use glass as the de-facto re-usable container medium has always driven me nuts. I think the "marketing" is that it's slightly "harder" (mentally) to throw away a nice glass bottle than it is a plastic container because we've been so conditioned to throw out the plastic ones. I've long wondered why retailers don't offer a "refill" option for items like milk and liquid cleaning products. The bottles for…

Part of it is also that it's a lot more inert in terms of chemical reactions or leeching than plastic is.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#267

Post by drb91 »

jdietrich wrote: post #154
vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

You seem to simply prefer effectively permanent waste over energy use. Many do not.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#268

Post by allendoerfer »

codeisawesome wrote: post #186
jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

Energy appears to be obtainable sustainably (so a feeling manifests that it’s okay to waste it right now as long as we keep pedalling hard toward a clean solution ASAP). Plastic degradation appears to be a much harder problem. Also of course, helps that plastic garbage is “visible and ugly”, whereas climate change is abstract.

This is also my way of thinking. Don't worry about engergy, worry about waste and chemicals instead.

Solve all problems through more and more green energy (recycling, reusing, cleaning etc.) and smarter and smarter robots (cleaning, separating, mechanical solutions instead of chemicals).

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#269

Post by namibj »

gianpaj wrote: post #244
ryanianian wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The decision to use glass as the de-facto re-usable container medium has always driven me nuts. I think the "marketing" is that it's slightly "harder" (mentally) to throw away a nice glass bottle than it is a plastic container because we've been so conditioned to throw out the plastic ones. I've long wondered why retailers don't offer a "refill" option for items like milk and liquid cleaning products. The bottles for…

In Ukraine, there is a big French supermarket chain called Ашан (auchan.ua), in which people can buy liquid cleaning products by the volume. For example, if you need a litre for dishwashing cleaning soap, you can go and pull a lever and fill an appropriate size plastic bottle. It's their own brand and it's very cheap. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring and use any plastic bottle, or you have first get it from them. T…

I hope you understand the irony of using a plastic bag for this...

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#270

Post by eric_h »

ryanianian wrote: post #242
Slippery_John wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some detergent makers actually do sell refill bags that use far less plastic. There's also been a resurgence of milkmen in London and some other places, where you leave out your empty bottles and get a refill. While there aren't milkpeople where I live, there are a few places where I can pay a deposit on a glass bottle and then exchange it for a full bottle whenever I need. It's not widespread by any means, but it is…

The re-usable detergent bags are nice, and many countries do distribute milk in thin plastic bags that you then empty into a pitcher at home. But as parent points out, exchanging glass bottles isn't really better for the environment (in terms of CO2) as compared to properly disposing of plastic. No real reason why those deposit+refill bottles need to be glass; they could just as well be quality plastic and reduce som…

> many countries do distribute milk in thin plastic bags that you then empty into a pitcher at home.

Nonsense - you put the whole bag in a pitcher and then snip an end off the bag! No need to do any dishes afterwards.

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