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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#261

On one hand, I reluctantly appreciate Trump's election because it will force silicon valley to think many times before readily giving up user privacy to the US government. I felt like the attitude was very lax under Obama (despite the Snowden revelations). On the other hand, this bothers me a bit because it continues to allow people in the valley to maintain a (sorry to use this word) delusion that what they are doin…

Being “mindful of their actions” doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing the right thing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don’t really get why anyone would want drones to be less accurate, but maybe that just means I’m just a no-good warmongering fool, right?

Incidentedly, I worked on drones for the Navy and Marines for many years.

My issue is with the hypocracy. Don't claim to be moral and sell this Kool aid. It sounds a lot like religious high priests that I have a viceral reaction to (given where I come from). It could just be my own personal issue with the faux moral sell of the valley.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#262

Serious question for those who agree with this petition. Which country's military would you like to see be the most technologically advanced in 20 years?

After a certain point it's irrelevant. Soviets developed the Tsar Bomba; should the US have tried to one up them?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#263

While I appreciate the engineers speaking out, it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another. If, as an engineer, it is against your moral code to do any work that supports the military, your choices are limited to working in small companies where everyone is focused on the commercial products and services…

> it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another Perhaps not, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Google can't pick and choose what technology it sells or provides to the military. They can, for example, serve the administrative needs of the military (e.g. Google Apps), but not necessarily provide techn…

There is a joke that goes like this;

The richest man in town calls up the local newspaper and complains that he didn't get the store coupons in this week's Sunday supplement. The clerk responds, "Why do you care about the coupons? You're the richest man in town!" Then he responds, "How do you think I got to be so rich?"

Several things come into play in these scenarios.

In Google's case it makes essentially no actual money on "Google Brain", sure it gets headlines for beating Go, sure it attracts top talent (that needs to be paid!) and it still gives those folks free lunches and nice office space etc. So anything that offsets that expense is good.

And in Google, for all of its "lavish" perks, is a penny pincher like our rich man in the story. One of the stories when I was working there, they used to have a brand name juice cases where you could pick up any of the varieties of juice or smoothies that they made. The smoothies were very popular. Then one day out of the blue they swapped them for a different, and by every measure, inferior brand and fewer choices. There were lots of stories about why they switched, but after a lot of internal debate and investigation, the reason was that the replacements were cheaper (by about 25 cents each on their most expensive smoothie as I recall). It angered a lot of employees and one allegedly quit over it (well technically they called it the latest in a string of bad choices). The cost savings, assuming that every employee drank a case of their most expensive smoothie every day (which would represent an upper bound) was about $18M. That was 1% of the quarterly free cash flow (money that had been deposited into cash after all other uses). All of that pain for what was sure less than $18M in "savings".

The third factor is dual use. Sure you can use AI research into interpreting images to build killer robots that can identify and assassinate only those targets you specify. But you can also use it to pick out where the roadway has changed subtly indicating a roadside bomb, or a hazard that a self driving car should avoid, etc.

When you combine these three factors; one that AI team is just overhead, two the corporate willingness to alienate and possibly lose some of their employees over saving a nickel, and the ability to rationalize any number of non-evil uses for the technology, you get a recipe where of course they will sell things to the government without any regard to how that technology will be used. Just look at their main business, selling advertising. They just "sell ads" even when those ads are promoting illegal or unethical acts by consumers whether it is payday loans or Canadian pharmacies. Only when the FTC comes in and tells them to stop do they stop, not through some inner altruism.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nothing more than an attempt for Silicon Valley to pretend that they're a bastion of pure innovation, where all advancements are only for good. It's naive and extremely holier-than-thou.

Well, that's one extreme. The other extreme is that some folks actually have a conscience. Reality is probably on a continuum in between.

The other extreme is that some folks actually have a conscience

Those people are not working in AdTech.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory?

It doesn't much matter. Even if somebody made the case that "crypto is a form of 'Arms', subject to 2A protection," the 2A doesn't grant an unregulated right to own whatever "arms" one chooses. All the rights granted by the Constitution are subject to reasonable regulation.

So, Congress could simply legislate a restriction on crypto, much as they have done with machine guns, grenades, and nukes.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#266
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing the degree to which people are ignorant of what you've said here and imagine the US was motivated by ideology.

The US was motivated by ideology. Why was the US an ally of GB/France/etc and not Germany/Italy? Contrary to your belief, greed can be ideological -- striving for global free trade is an example of this.

I'll admit I was modifying what I would have said IRL for this medium. You are absolutely right: one of the most brilliant victories of so-called "neoliberal" capitalism is how it's utterly convinced people that it represents human nature. That it's not ideological. What I meant by my comment was that "saving the world from the evil of global Fascism" was a post-hoc rationalization, not what motivated America to join the war years after it had begun.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#267
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point but it also treats life as a zero sum game that's played in a steady-state arena where the threat of Tartars over the next hill is ever present. That's a good way to prevent progress and to defend yourself perfectly against the Last War but one would think the last 30 years of terrorism would have shown us the flaw in that. Put another way: who benefits from $Giant_New_Military_Platform like new f…

Agree. And to that I'll add, it was an ex general and ex POTUS who coined the term (or at least etched it into history): Military Industrial Complex Yet most act like that "friendly reminder" never happened. The collective memory is in fact short.

Originally it was the "military-industrial-Congressional complex".

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you don't help make drones more accurate, you're the reason for collateralized murder". Or, you could like, just stop droning innocent people to death. Not saying we all have to agree, but just that factually speaking - it's within the realm of possibilities. And for that reason it's a false dichotomy.

You’re saying that as if droning was specifically meant to target innocent people, when that’s exactly what they’re trying to avoid.

  that’s exactly what they’re trying to avoid.

   The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Circular argumentation

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#269
post #197
post #75

I for one would rather have a drone strike program that actually actively avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. There are certainly gray areas here as far as the use of that program from a political standpoint (whether the strikes are warranted or whether it is part of regime changes). On the other hand, by not helping the military become more efficient we also risk losing existing lives (our own and civili…

I am not able to understand because I'm stuck at "the government uses autonomous robots to kill people extra-judiciously with missiles from the sky and nobody seems to care." And you want to make the program "more efficient." This is the gulf which I cannot seem to bridge. Extra-judicial killings of "terrorists" in "bad places" using flying killer robots is just batshit insane to me. I cannot for the life of me under…

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#270
post #52
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

Without defending the morality of the Hitler/Stalin/Mao governments (or of the US government), it's very much worth noting that scientific researched flourished in the USSR and technological research continues to flourish in China. A lot of discoveries in computer science had roughly simultaneous Soviet / US discovery (the Cook-Levin theorem is a good example). There are a huge number of technology companies in China…

> There are a huge number of technology companies in China, and all your chips come from there anyway.

The vast majority of chips produced in Asia come from Taiwan, not the RoC. That’s a big difference, given that this discussion is about the innovation of democratic vs. autocratic governments, and the Taiwanese and Chinese governments are on completely opposite sides of that spectrum.

I’m not saying that Taiwan innovates more than a China because it has a democratic government, but it’s at least worth distinguishing between the two countries.

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