How poverty changes your mindset • Hacker News Board

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#261

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #196

chaostheory wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see people screaming and walking down the streets talking to themselves, I see people that need love If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution. Unfortunately the overall national trend has been funding cuts, with the irony being that it doesn't save money overall; since the costs are just shifted over to hospitals and other emergenc…

> If they're talking to themselves, they need more than that. They probably need to be cared for in a mental institution The statement that they should probably need to be cared for in a mental institution isn't true. That some or several may need to be cared for is true, yes, but the probability of that need is less well know. Schizophrenia and other schizophrenia-related disorders can often 'mellow out' on their ow…

To be clear, we're discussing homeless people with mental issues, and not people who aren't homeless. The homeless have less access to resources than a non-homeless person with family and friends.

> It is important to give someone a stable and loving and validating environment for them to be able to recover. There are several kinds of people who, while they talk to themselves, really just have their symptoms exacerbated by stress

Yes, which is why a mental institution is a good starting point for a homeless person with mental issues. Let's not confuse these institutions with the mental asylums of the past. Are there better alternatives for the mentally ill homeless that I'm not aware of? I don't feel that most if not all homeless shelters are equiped to fully deal with individuals suffering from schizophrenia.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#262

Post by kbart » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:42 AM UTC

chlorophyl wrote: post #95

zouhair wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You being 17 when that happened helped a lot too. If the same happens when you are 40 or 45 getting out of the gutter would be nigh on impossible.

I agree with this. I was destitute when I was 18, but I managed to come back through a series of part time jobs. I've always lived within my means but since my job do not really pay much anyway, it's very hard to save. Now that I'm 40 and poor again (lost my job due to cutbacks), it is impossible for me to recover. Getting new jobs are much harder and people are pretty discriminative towards my age. Nowadays, even em…

Why impossible? It's just a mindset. People do switch careers at >40 years, it's far from impossible.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#263

Post by suj1th » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:42 AM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #206

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

American poverty sounds so different from Chinese poverty. I grew up during the tail years of communism and everybody was dirt poor. The interesting thing is, nobody was financially stressed, starvation and homelessness was not a thing. I ended up developing an abundance mentality and terrible money management skills. Looking even further back, my parents experienced the height of policy stupidity and barely survived…

I can relate to this. I grew up in India when India was a closed economy, with anything (commodities or services) either too expensive or limited by license raj. My father, being a lowly government official, did have a steady but meagre income. Groceries and mortgage were always on his mind. But, he also had his habit of never borrowing, in spite of dire need. Never kept a credit card either (to this day). I have learnt that brand of frugality from him.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#264

Post by Viliam1234 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:43 AM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #55

bojackstorkman wrote: post #30

I love how when this comes up, it's people either saying "Here was my experience when I was poor in the past." or "Here is what I think about economics or the wording of this article." Don't get me wrong, I know what website I'm on. But in all seriousness, is there room for currently poor people in this discussion?

In most societies being poor is shameful, asking for help is twice as shameful. Even if someone that is poor and read your comment will most likely post an answer. When poor people get things for "free" (like charity, I hate charity) they actually pay with pride and dignity.

Depends on the form of charity (and that includes government assistance).

Give me basic income, and I will feel no loss of dignity.

Make me stand in a line for a few hours (what's the problem wasting my time, if I am unemployed anyway, right?), fill out a ton of paperwork, send me back to collect signatures from my former employers that I really did work for them three years ago (because everyone deserves to be told that I have a problem now, especially my former employers), and so on... then I will consider not eating for a few weeks a more dignified option.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#265

Post by Viliam1234 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

dizzystar wrote: post #213

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

I grew up in poverty as well and my reaction to money is the total opposite. I never felt connected to it all. I want to be a good saver, but my understanding of the green stuff is nearly nil. It's just sort of there and I try not to think about it. I think it's just the opposite problem. I simply don't know what to spend money on. I feel like I spend a lot of money, but somehow everyone is in deeper debt than I am.…

When I walk in a shop, I just see many things that I do not need. Other people worry that they won't get enough vacation by ocean, the latest car model, or the most fashionable clothes... I just laugh at such suggestions. I have a roof above my head, as much food as I need, a computer and a fast internet connection -- what else would I really need?

On the other hand, for a long time in my life, when I saved some money, I had absolutely no idea what to do with it. That was a kind of a problem no one around me had during my childhood. I wish I had found websites like "early retirement extreme" a few decades ago, because I was the kind of person who could quite simply achieve it. (Instead I lost the extra money taking bad investment advice from various "financial advisors".) Other people seem to have an irresistible urge to increase their expenses when their income increases; I don't feel this urge.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#266

Post by abbiya » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:55 AM UTC

Or how money changes your mindset ?

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#267

Post by AceJohnny2 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

See also Scalzi's "Being Poor" (2005): https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

An essay to drive home some aspects of living in poverty.

Sample: "Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house.

Being poor is knowing you can’t leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around.

Being poor is hoping your kids don’t have a growth spurt."

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#268

Post by Hextinium » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

mrep wrote: post #248

jopsen wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look.

> When half your country frame it as: makers VS takers. I have never heard of that term before. What does that mean? > Then "simply need help" would be a significant policy change. Again, governments are based on policies and rules. "simply need help" is way to abstract. > Lots of other developed countries have made inroads on poverty. Just look. Which policies and rules used by other governments do you recommend?

Conservatives in the deep south I find have belief in this, they think that giving money to people that have none is fundamentally stealing from them through taxation and then giving it to someone that doesn't work as hard as them.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#269

Post by draugadrotten » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 8:07 AM UTC

gizmo686 wrote: post #89

adrr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of society can't be brought out of poverty. Here's an example: If we motivated everyone to get a college education, we would have people flipping burgers who are college educated making min wage and living in poverty while struggling to put food on the table.

Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty. However, if you define poverty in absolute terms, then there is no fundamental reason why we cannot reach 100% non poverty. All that is necessary is for society to produce enough "stuff" that, when divided by the total population, is still greater than the poverty threshold. In pr…

> Why not? If you define poverty as being below the Xth percentile of wealth, then it is tautological that we cannot reach 100% non-poverty.

This is indeed how it is defined in many wellfare states eg in Europe.

"People are considered at risk of monetary poverty when their equivalised disposable income (after social transfers) is below the at-risk-of-poverty threshold. This is set at 60 % of the national median equivalised disposable income after social transfers."

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

There will always be poor people with this definition.

Re: How poverty changes your mindset

#270

Post by Viliam1234 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 8:08 AM UTC

linkmotif wrote: post #99

kraig911 wrote: post #69

I hate seeing people's comments on stories around this topic. I grew up in poverty and food stamps from time to time. My dad was a roughneck and when the oil bust happened in the 80's there was a time we lived out of our car -- my whole family. here was literally nothing to do in the oil patch during that bust. There was literally no work. But people don't understand true hopelessness. My dad did everything he could…

I don’t think there’s necessarily a conflict between having empathy for people unconditionally while still asking questions like: if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings? People ask these questions because being miserly to save is hard and unpleasant, and then when others seemingly haven’t saved, it’s emotionally difficult helping them. I see people us…

> if times were at one point good or OK but you’ve fallen into hard times now, why did you not have savings?

The size of income is not the only difference between people. People can have different families, get different informal education at home, etc.

If you are poor but smart, and so is your family, and you love and help each other... there is a chance you will sooner or later get out of poverty somehow; as long as one succeeds, they can provide help and advice to others, etc.

It is a completely different situation if e.g. someone in your poor family is crazy. Crazy people can create all kinds of difficulties, whether interpersonal or financial, which can consume all your energy and savings.

I know people who have decent income, but can't save any of it, because they have relatives who regularly get themselves in all kinds of financial trouble, knowing that they can always ask Joe to save them. For example, they don't pay their bills, and then call Joe for help when a collector comes and wants the money back with some extra interest. And Joe doesn't know how to tell them "no" and just watch them lose the roofs above their heads. Therefore, no matter how many years of decent income will Joe have, he will never have savings.

I know people who spend a lot of their attention mitigating various problems that their crazy relatives with too much free time created. The amount of energy someone else spends on building a startup, they spend solving artificially created problems which wouldn't exist if their crazy relatives wouldn't make up things, or if the rest of the family wouldn't believe them.

I guess what I am trying to say is that people are connected; and some of them start connected to decent people, and others start connected to huge heaps of shit. Social capital is also a form of capital, and it can be negative.