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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#261

Post by gaius »

striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

Are they actually too big to fail?

Not even close. If Uber disappeared tomorrow it would have literally zero impact. You'd get the same driver in the same car via another app and one ride later you'd have forgotten Uber ever existed.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#262

Post by [deleted] »

eridius wrote: post #79
alphonsegaston wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all these "hit pieces" cooked up by Uber employees because of their ethics are really undermining the case against Uber. /s If anything, I have greater respect for Uber employees after this series of leaks than I did before.

Wait what? How does that make any sense? Edit: This comment was written before the parent added the /s tag.

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#263

Post by jfoutz »

us0r wrote: post #182
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement.

There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want to tell people because i'm building cool stuff, but i can't, at least not until the product is ready. In the latter case, i'd be at least embarrassed, if not ashamed of the tools.

But I agree, it's slick. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback when it's not my career at stake. With millions or billions of dollars on the line, my ethics might erode much faster than i want to admit. In that case, I'd hope evil jfoutz (or ethically devoid jfoutz) would build such a sophisticated tool.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#264

Post by sgift »

Karunamon wrote: post #196
eridius wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP was arguing that because they don't like the law it's immoral to enforce. Whether or not OP likes the law really has nothing to do with whether the law is immoral.

Not sure I read it that way, but okay. But that reading requires you to ask "why", and sometimes it feels very much like the government lost the consent of the governed a looooong time ago..

If the government had lost the consent of the governed it wouldn't have been elected / it won't be elected again. That's basically what all this is about. Sure, democracy, elections, all this things may not be the best system, but it is very effective at damage control. You don't govern well? You're out after four or five years. All other system known have far worse damage control.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#265

Post by snappyTertle »

geofft wrote: post #249
snappyTertle wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want it out, but it's pretty clear other people don't. Why are you able to force your personal views on other? You are free to choose not to use Uber, others are free to choose for themselves.

Because that's the primary way that governments aren't just corporations: if the rulers (the majority, in a democracy) believe that Uber needs to go out, or at least needs to stop participating in the market in certain ways, the government can enforce that via its monopoly on violence. This has historically worked pretty well for human society; for instance, if someone gets the clever idea to participate in a market…

Why should a majority be able to decide who and who doesn't get to participate in the market?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#266

Post by Dylan16807 »

menacingly wrote: post #82
PunchTornado wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not as bad as the company deserves.

Kind of weird IMO to think of a company as deserving or not deserving something. It's a group of people with a with array of opinions and behavior, many of whom probably like having a place to work It's much more constructive to want the organization to get better than to cheer on some kind of punishment we think it's owed

> Kind of weird IMO to think of a company as deserving or not deserving something.

Companies have patterns of behavior just like any other entity. As much as the idea of 'deserving' applies at all, it can apply to companies.

> It's much more constructive to want the organization to get better than to cheer on some kind of punishment we think it's owed

It's a strange implication that this is different from how we should treat individuals. We should be more focused on rehabilitation when it's an individual.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#267

Post by kristofferR »

pegasos1 wrote: post #135

This seems like one of the first major illicit uses of data science. There should be more regulation and oversight over the data owned by corporations.

It seems like a good idea until you think more about it.

I at least wouldn't let the US Government, NSA included, have even more access to private data.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#268

Post by CompanionCuube »

anigbrowl wrote: post #141
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. Local government is not the same as the NSA. Quit with these fallacies of composition.

Ever heard of a Stingray?

https://www.aclu.org/map/stingray-tracking-devices-whos-got-...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#269

Post by jdmichal »

accountface wrote: post #142
striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…

More or less Redbox' strategy too, from what I can tell. Prices have been creeping up ever since the major competition (Blockbuster et al) dropped out of the market. And I suspect it's not because the costs to run machines has been increasing...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#270

Post by snappyTertle »

quirkot wrote: post #176
snappyTertle wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting is an illusion of choice. You have the choice to use Uber or not, You don't have a choice when it comes to following the law. How is state not a huge corporation?

A corporation is an entity designed to take on risk for the benefit of the few. The state is an entity designed to mitigate risk for the benefit of all, which ends up benefiting the few due to implementation problems

The state is an entity designed to benefit all at the cost of the few, but thanks to the corruption of uneven power, the state ends up benefitting those in power at the cost of those not in power.
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