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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#131

Post by briandear »

lacampbell wrote: post #68
maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Actually even if you "flee," the US has FATCA and taxation on world wide income. If you want to renounce, there's a $2300 fee, plus you have to show 5 years of tax compliance. If you have enough money, there's even an exit tax.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#132

Post by geofft »

lacampbell wrote: post #68
maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

> If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber.

This is a super naive view of how markets work (and I'm very surprised to see this out of someone who calls the state a "corporation").

I don't really mind Uber as a service; they get me where I need to go. I hate Uber as a market participant. They change the economics of taxis, of existing black car services, of public transit, etc., i.e., of every single thing I'm using because I'm not using Uber.

I haven't used Uber in years, but I want it out of the markets that I try to buy transit service in, because it affects those markets.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#133

Post by skookumchuck »

maldusiecle wrote: post #24
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

The difference between the government and the corporation is the government can confiscate your property, take your liberty, and end your life. A corporation can do none of those things.

A bad government is far, far, far more dangerous than a bad corporation.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#134

Post by JoshTriplett »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #46

What if local law enforcement officer was posing undercover as an Uber customer as part of a sexual assault investigation or trying to track down all drivers in relation to a recent crime? This is framed as getting around restrictions on taxi services, but any time you proactively thwart law enforcement, you're inviting a lot of dangerous unintended consequences. None of which I'm sure Uber is concerned about.

> What if local law enforcement officer was posing undercover as an Uber customer as part of a sexual assault investigation or trying to track down all drivers in relation to a recent crime?

If they were, then I suspect that Uber would go out of their way to cooperate, using the detailed information they have on ride histories. Get a warrant, serve it to Uber, and get the data needed for the investigation.

This ignores the question of whether Uber should gather and keep that much information, but given that they do, using it seems far more useful than anything this mechanism would have thwarted.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#136

Post by alphonsegaston »

valine wrote: post #113
alphonsegaston wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an absurd false equivalency. The NSA isn't tracking down drivers, this is local law enforcement. They could be investigating a crime related to an Uber driver, but not specifically about the legality of the service. What if you were just robbed or assaulted by a driver and Uber sends fake data about nearby cars when a cop is trying to use the app to track them down?

> What if you were just robbed or assaulted by a driver and Uber sends fake data about nearby cars when a cop is trying to use the app to track them down? You can't use the app to track anyone down. Driver reviews of passengers and passenger reviews of drivers are annoynomous for this reason. If a cop is trying to track an uber driver they would be much better off getting the license plate from the passenger and runn…

Yeah, but you could also use it to see where cars are in the area and track them down from there? Except if you're a cop they flagged and they send you bullshit noise on purpose. I guess that's fine, right?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#137

Post by snappyTertle »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #96
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides You can vote. >The state is a huge corporation No.

Voting is an illusion of choice. You have the choice to use Uber or not, You don't have a choice when it comes to following the law.

How is state not a huge corporation?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#138

Post by untog »

vthallam wrote: post #43
JamilD wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People generally feel more empowered to call out a company when others do. It's not so much about the media piling on Uber, as employees feeling safe in talking about their company's problems.

I don't think NYTimes need empowerment or to wait for someone to call out Uber to publish this story. I can only guess of a negative PR campaign from an apparent competitor, it's very obvious if you see anonymous medium posts(minus the susan flower's) and the hyperbole created about Travis's video and now this. Like everyone, I want them to pay for the culture they created at their company which resulted in employee…

The NYTimes doesn't need empowerment, they need sources. And those sources are the ones that need empowerment.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#139

Post by [deleted] »

vthallam wrote: post #43
JamilD wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People generally feel more empowered to call out a company when others do. It's not so much about the media piling on Uber, as employees feeling safe in talking about their company's problems.

I don't think NYTimes need empowerment or to wait for someone to call out Uber to publish this story. I can only guess of a negative PR campaign from an apparent competitor, it's very obvious if you see anonymous medium posts(minus the susan flower's) and the hyperbole created about Travis's video and now this. Like everyone, I want them to pay for the culture they created at their company which resulted in employee…

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#140

Post by fisherjeff »

SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

> I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that?

The first six digits identify the issuing institution. Here's a free service for looking up a bank based on that information: https://binbase.com

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