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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

261–270 of 411 posts

Re: Developers’ side projects

#261
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not right. The owner of the copyright is the only entity that can decide the license of the code.

That's an assumption. Following that assumption, you would need to ask your employer if he agrees with any tiny contribution you do to any open source project out there. Which doesn't scale. What the employment contract does is own the contribution precisely because it doesn't make any sense to ask permission everytime an employee writes anything in his own time.

> you would need to ask your employer if he agrees with any tiny contribution you do to any open source project out there. Which doesn't scale.

This is why contributor agreements exist. They aren't per-contribution, but per-project (which scales much better).

Re: Developers’ side projects

#262
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Example: In Germany you usually have some paragraphs on this in the (work) contract (there are a couple popular variations - there isn't much leeway provided by German law here, which is good). "We own everything you do" is definitely illegal in Germany, and also not put into work contracts (such a clause would be void anyway). The legal construction is basically that the employee grants an exclusive, irrevoc…

I thought it was the moral rights that couldn't be transferred, not copyright?

These two are the same in Germany; German doesn't have a word for moral rights.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#263

I always thought of Joel as one of important Excel authors. I was very much surprised to see he is CEO of Stack Overflow now. Giving context of the article, I am going to re-read carefully Stack Overflow ToS.

> I always thought of Joel as one of important Excel authors. I was very much surprised to see he is CEO of Stack Overflow now.

Huh. You've missed a lot in the intervening years. eg. https://www.amazon.com/Joel-Spolsky/e/B001K8FTIE/

Re: Developers’ side projects

#264

How does it affect the side projects(open/closed source) that you were already working on before taking up the new job?

It would depend on the local laws and the wording of the contract. It would be highly unusual for an employer to claim ownership over pre-existing IP (unless that was the reason they were hiring you).

Of course even if pre-existing IP is owned you don't want to be in a position where contributions to the same project after date of new employment are owned by the company, creating a divide in ownership.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#265
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Example: In Germany you usually have some paragraphs on this in the (work) contract (there are a couple popular variations - there isn't much leeway provided by German law here, which is good). "We own everything you do" is definitely illegal in Germany, and also not put into work contracts (such a clause would be void anyway). The legal construction is basically that the employee grants an exclusive, irrevoc…

can you give me a link for the german law?

UrhG § 69b is the regulation specifically for software developers that work contracts typically refer to. Usually there is also a clause referring to UrhG § 31a to license usage rights of unknown kinds of usage as well.

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btw. seems that I was wrong about copyright attribution. Got a mail, apparently some contracts include a clause that the employer can in fact attribute any work to herself, so "Copyright (c) 1871 Foobar GmbH" can happen and can be correct.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#266
post #197

There's a loophole in most of these draconian contracts: they might own the copyright of what you do in your spare time, but they don't get to decide the license you use for your software (at least I've never seen any clause about this, ever). Then the solution is to use a liberal opensource license (MIT), and publish it somewhere. If you decide to reuse that code in the future for your own venture, you can just use…

That's an interesting thought - does the copyright assignment happen before or after the license assignment?

Let's say my contract says "employee agrees to transfer copyright to all work". Does that happen immediately the moment the work comes into existence? If yes - you can't actually license it how you want, since you're never the copyright owner of the work.

What if I just don't assign the copyright? It is clear breach of contract, but at least for some amount of time, the company isn't the copyright owner, so you CAN assign a license. Can the court grant a retrospective copyright ownership, so that the original license is null? What if it was GPL3 and you gave the code to someone else, who made their own modifications and started distributing their version? If they're making money from it, could they sue the original company for loss of profit in the event that the court decrees that they don't actually have a license following the resolution of the lawsuit between the company and employee?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#267

Joel doesn't often miss things, but with respect I think he missed something here. If you, the employee, are working for an employer you respect, and vice versa, YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION! If your day job is, say, maintaining high-capacity forum software in dotnet, and you have this hankering to develop, say, a WordPress plugin to show the time of sunrise, you can talk about it. If you respect your boss and she res…

That's not at all congruent to the reality of the power dynamic in a modern office.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had come to them with a couple of ideas during my employment which they had rejected but I said I may pursue. In addition, they had purchased my company so as with most buyouts there was the usual cultural and operational issues between myself and upper management. So I framed it that it would be good for both parties to release each other from any future claims and we could both go on our merry ways.

Ahh, so I assume not something a typical employee could do. Thanks!

The way you handle this as a typical employee is to not work for dicks. That way when they see you being successful they cheer you on rather than try to bring you down.

Also, you don't always have no leverage to negotiate contract terms. When I separated from my last job, my severance agreement as given to me included a 2 year gag clause keeping me from talking about it to anyone. I negotiated it down to six months, using the time-honored tactic of bitching until I got my way.

Bitching is a useful tool in the kind of low-stakes environment that most employee negotiations happen in. Legal action is the equivalent of nuclear warfare, if you're willing to bitch about something, the company, so long as you're not working for a bunch of dicks, is going to eventually open up about what they need to get out of a particular contract clause. This paves the way for a gentleman's agreement whereby you agree to not fuck their shit up, and they agree to not fuck yours up.

In my case, what they wanted was for me to not lead an employee charge for better perks / compensation, and I just wanted to be able to yak about it on Hacker News. So I agreed to keep my mouth shut to my fellow employees about the agreement, and they agreed to reduce the length of the gag clause.

But again, you can't be working for a bunch of dicks. You need to maintain good relationships with your bosses and company leadership and your work output and ethic should never be in question. You are, in other words, loyal to each other. It's great to be ambitious and to want more out of life, but you shouldn't stomp all over the people who are helping you to get there.

Every time I've ever seen one of these "former employer fucked with me after I moved on" stories, the employee in question was clearly working for a bunch of dicks. Your intuition is your most valuable asset as a little guy. Your chances of getting stepped on can range from 0% all the way up to 100% if you're working in the entertainment biz where stepping on little guys is just the culture. You don't have to bury your head in the sand and ignore the risk.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#269

I feel like this article grossly exaggerated the nature of the laws and relationship between you and the employer. I think it's a good thing that Joel isn't a lawyer because anyone following his advice will lead to implosion. First, there is a very high bar for what is regarded the property of the company vs your own work. Even if you created your own open source project website and pushed code on your own github acc…

That's sound legal advice regardless. If you can afford it, having your own company under whose name you can do your own projects protects you greatly from legal action.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#270
Well, why not just go development and collaborative way of doing things and not make a gist/repo with a list of companies friendly to side projects, and unfriendly? Like Glassdoor it will add more clarity and competition to those companies, since people would know what they're signing for _before_ sending CV, going to interview or signing the offer.
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