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To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

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Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#261

Post by AstralStorm »

bonoboTP wrote: post #123
dredmorbius wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simpering sympathising and apologising thing can go much too far as well. My reaction to that is "stop apologising and fix the damned problem". Experience teaches that it's almost always a sign of someone who's not empowered, or worse, not capable, of actually improving the situation. At worst their role is to actively impede the process, a circumstance far too frequently encountered.

If you watch the video in GP, he talks about situations where he can't or doesn't want to fix anything. For example there's nothing to fix when customers send out spam, it's the customer who has to change their behavior. And people don't like being told that they are at fault. So the point is about how to ease them into understanding that without becoming angry at the company.

Of course, he is dead wrong about nothing to do. He just does not want to inconvenience his own customers.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#262

Post by AstralStorm »

M_Grey wrote: post #32

It's the complete opposite of what seems to be the increasingly reigning trend online at least, and all too often offline. That is to say this is good advice, but a really shocking number of people seem to unaware that the least effective teacher is the one who informs you that you're a pointless moron before trying to correct you. I'm constantly amazed at people who think their genius is so valuable that anyone woul…

Sometimes, a mental jolt is necessary, rather than soft diplomacy. Zen masters understood such things.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#263

Post by M_Grey »

AstralStorm wrote: post #262
M_Grey wrote: post #32

It's the complete opposite of what seems to be the increasingly reigning trend online at least, and all too often offline. That is to say this is good advice, but a really shocking number of people seem to unaware that the least effective teacher is the one who informs you that you're a pointless moron before trying to correct you. I'm constantly amazed at people who think their genius is so valuable that anyone woul…

Sometimes, a mental jolt is necessary, rather than soft diplomacy. Zen masters understood such things.

Calling someone an asshole isn't the path to 'satori', and ego has no place in a zen koan.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#264

Post by piyush_soni »

AstralStorm wrote: post #259
piyush_soni wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the whole reason "first tell them how they are right, then how they are wrong" works is that most people are irrational.

Wrong, they rationally prefer hedonic feeling. How did you feel about this post? ;-) Valid logic, different premises.

Good point! What you say looks logical. In my opinion though, the fact that they find first telling them how they're right as a prerequisite to be told how they're wrong hedonic, is irrational :).

(So tell me, have I mastered it now? ;) )

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#265

Post by AstralStorm »

ojosilva wrote: post #199

This is very shallow. Negotiation theory is not helpful when you're plainly or partially wrong, or just in a very weak position to defend. Here's a classic negotiation example that I just can't crack: Her: I've told you, please don't leave your socks on the floor. Him: (mirroring) Leave my socks on the floor? Her: Yes. Please throw them in the laundry bin right after you take them off. Him: (open-ended question) How…

Sometimes, a game cannot be won. Negotiation cannot be done if the other party is not willing.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#266

Post by AstralStorm »

kibwen wrote: post #37
orsenthil wrote: post #13

I had this failure to make a family member see a particular point of view. The person had taken a stance, that would be harmful to the family, but yet rational arguments did not work out. The person had something to gain, I don't know what, by causing this harm, the person went ahead with that. Have you ever encountered this? If yes, does rational argument and persuation work with people who don't care?

Rationality is relative. People do tend to make decisions based on reason, even seemingly irrational people, but 1) people possess differing information, from which two rational actors can draw contradictory yet individually-logical conclusions, and 2) everyone is susceptible to flawed logic. In the case of the latter, trying to directly "correct" someone's logic is often unwelcome (especially in a heated emotional c…

People often act according to heuristics rather than truly rational analysis. These heuristics are rational on their own, just misapplied at times.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#267

Post by AstralStorm »

munchbunny wrote: post #30
orsenthil wrote: post #13

I had this failure to make a family member see a particular point of view. The person had taken a stance, that would be harmful to the family, but yet rational arguments did not work out. The person had something to gain, I don't know what, by causing this harm, the person went ahead with that. Have you ever encountered this? If yes, does rational argument and persuation work with people who don't care?

If they're trying to get something and are willing to screw others over for it, then you have to give them an easier way to get what they want. Maybe they actually want something else? Or maybe they can get the thing some less damaging way? If that all fails then you have to find other strings to pull. Figure out what currencies they care about (think social pressure) and see how you might be able to use them to help…

How Machiavelian. We're talking about people, not things. People are often inconsistent. You cannot reduce them to a simple stratagem without a risk of total mistake.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#268

Post by AstralStorm »

pjc50 wrote: post #183
Xcelerate wrote: post #53

It would be incredibly difficult, but I've always wished we could develop a (formal) axiomatic system of morality, such that with independent axioms that each person takes as true by default, all of that person's positions on the major issues would be immediately derivable from the axioms and would essentially be indisputable. Heated emotional debates that last for hours would instead turn into each party running a s…

> (formal) axiomatic system of morality See the entire history of philosophy and ethics.

Which is why there are so many formal or semi-formal systems.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#269

Post by AstralStorm »

vog wrote: post #103

Was this really confirmed just know in psychology? At least here in Germany this is ubiquitous. "Start criticism with the positive" is taught everywhere from elementary school to university, from self-help groups to management courses. This is so normal that it is usually not attributed to Pascal, but to common-sense psychology and good social behaviour in general. I alway thought this was well-established in science…

It is generally safer to start with neutral inquisitive stance. Some people take the easy positive them attempt to browbeat you because "you have agreed".

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#270

Post by AstralStorm »

WWKong wrote: post #60

Here is a method to get the other person on your side of the issue: ask them the reasons the counter point could be reasonable. "Could you think of some reasons why one would vote for Trump? Seriously." Use responsibly.

The way you phrased it makes the question sound like a trap. It presumes one couldn't think of any reason.

Try "What are some reasons one would vote for Trump?" Neutral tone of voice included.

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