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Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#251

Post by notsony »

coldpie wrote: post #227
notsony wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about Mozilla or Firefox. I used to, but not anymore. Two reasons why. First, copying Chrome's UI. Second, forcing Brendan Eich out. These days Mozilla comes across as a bunch of whiners and activists rather than a technology company. Maybe Rust will be successful but I don't want to be part of an ecosystem where straight talking and free thought is banned. Do you want to submit a pull request and be tol…

Let's see how you feel about your boss when he donates $10,000 to declare that you are inhuman scum, then refuses to apologize when called on it.

How do you get from a personal donation to a state-wide proposition, to "inhuman scum"?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#252

Post by nova »

coldpie wrote: post #246
nova wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do yo really mean by that? Personally I worry that mere attaching some empty labels to an argument is reason enough justify censoring it.

I mean that if you choose to use slurs or donate money to hate groups, and are ostracized from a community as a result, then invoking "free speech" is not sufficient defense to be allowed back into that community. Or, in popular comic form: https://xkcd.com/1357/

So "you are free to say whatever you want, but if I don't like it I will destroy your life".

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#253

Post by notsony »

DonHopkins wrote: post #240
notsony wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about Mozilla or Firefox. I used to, but not anymore. Two reasons why. First, copying Chrome's UI. Second, forcing Brendan Eich out. These days Mozilla comes across as a bunch of whiners and activists rather than a technology company. Maybe Rust will be successful but I don't want to be part of an ecosystem where straight talking and free thought is banned. Do you want to submit a pull request and be tol…

Stop trying to rewrite history. Brendan Eich decided to leave on his own, in spite of the fact that they tried to get him to stay.

Nonsense. He was forced out. Forced to resign. How hard is that to understand?

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#254

Post by coldpie »

notsony wrote: post #251
coldpie wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see how you feel about your boss when he donates $10,000 to declare that you are inhuman scum, then refuses to apologize when called on it.

How do you get from a personal donation to a state-wide proposition, to "inhuman scum"?

Did you pay attention to the Prop 8 campaigners? They were and remain jaw-droppingly disgusting people.

> Early on, Prop 8’s supporters decided to focus their campaign primarily on children, stoking parents’ fears about gay people brainwashing their kids with pro-gay messages or, implicitly, turning their children gay.

> Another notorious commercial shows an earnest school administrator fretting that a “new health curriculum” that mentions gay marriage will “mess up” children with reference to “gay attraction.”

> In perhaps the most insulting ad, two gay fathers are quizzed about marriage and reproduction by their daughter; the takeaway, of course, is that this faux-family is twisting the mind and morals of their child with perverse ideas about marriage and love.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_s...

(Also it appears I got the donation amount wrong, it was $1,000, not $10,000.)

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#255

Post by coldpie »

nova wrote: post #252
coldpie wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that if you choose to use slurs or donate money to hate groups, and are ostracized from a community as a result, then invoking "free speech" is not sufficient defense to be allowed back into that community. Or, in popular comic form: https://xkcd.com/1357/

So "you are free to say whatever you want, but if I don't like it I will destroy your life".

I'm not sure whose life was destroyed or how we jumped to that point, but yes, if you choose that slurs and hate groups are more important to you than your community's acceptance, then you get to deal with those consequences. At no point is this an infringement on your right to free speech.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#256

Post by Aldo_MX »

GhotiFish wrote: post #138
Aldo_MX wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> isn't the "browser for doing." Is that a bad point? If you want a "browser for doing" install Firefox and 2147483647 extensions until it explodes. The fact that the default browser is extremely minimalistic is something good, users just need a "browser for browsing".

I'd have to agree that having a minimalistic browser that prevents users from getting into too much trouble is a good thing. If Microsoft decided to make Edge a purely minimal browser then expected you to get more sophisticated ones later if you needed more features, I'd actually be in favor of it. They're not going to do that. I think we all know that.

Considering their "Universal Windows Apps" strategy, and the history of how Chrome went from a minimalistic browser to a bloated resource hog, keeping the browser with only the essential features makes more sense in the long term.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#257

Post by lurkinggrue »

smacktoward wrote: post #148
KeytarHero wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox doesn't revert you to defaults You mean besides that time Firefox reverted everyone's search engine to Yahoo?

It only switched your search engine if you'd never changed from the original default (Google). If you had ever switched the search box to use a different engine, FF continued to respect that.

I had to deal with friends that were suddenly on yahoo and they didn't know why. So for a lot of people it was swapped out even if it was an accident.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#258

Post by BrendanEich »

tkubacki wrote: post #184
BrendanEich wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Google Chrome people rebelled against the overhead of a cross-language-engine garbage cycle collector. Are you aware of the technical details? Before this, before Blink forked WebKit, Apple rejected naive DartVM pre-integration changes for the same reason: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/... Whining for the poor Google-Goliath, blaming little Mozilla-David, is rich. No comment on the P…

>On this tangent about Dart, I'm happy that Chrome people prevailed I'm not. We are sentenced for another 20+ yrs for lang with broken 'this' pointer

Lots of languages, notably including Dart, compile to JS now. WebAssembly will support even more with high efficiency in the next year or two -- not in "20+ yrs".

Enough with pulling victim-faces! :-P.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#259

Post by BrendanEich »

michaelwww wrote: post #214
BrendanEich wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Google Chrome people rebelled against the overhead of a cross-language-engine garbage cycle collector. Are you aware of the technical details? Before this, before Blink forked WebKit, Apple rejected naive DartVM pre-integration changes for the same reason: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2011-December/... Whining for the poor Google-Goliath, blaming little Mozilla-David, is rich. No comment on the P…

The Dart team is not a large team and not an arrogant team. Led by Lars Bak, they thought to try and make something that ran faster than JavaScript by doing away with 'monkey patching.' Lars and Kasper Lund took all their experience working with V8 to make something that avoided the bottlenecks. Gilad Bracha designed a good working language and it works without many "gotchas" along the way. It's a pleasure to use. Th…

tl;dr -- "Dart is good". A fine view, I agree on parts.

Your words do nothing to address the very real technical problems that kept DartVM out of Chrome.

Stop personalizing everything and study the link I cited.

Re: Open Letter to Microsoft’s CEO: Don’t Roll Back the Clock on Choice and Control

#260

Post by BrendanEich »

coldpie wrote: post #254
notsony wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get from a personal donation to a state-wide proposition, to "inhuman scum"?

Did you pay attention to the Prop 8 campaigners? They were and remain jaw-droppingly disgusting people. > Early on, Prop 8’s supporters decided to focus their campaign primarily on children, stoking parents’ fears about gay people brainwashing their kids with pro-gay messages or, implicitly, turning their children gay. > Another notorious commercial shows an earnest school administrator fretting that a “new health cu…

You got a lot wrong.
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