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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#251

Post by tks2103 »

pjc50 wrote: post #182
tks2103 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain the downvote?

Not my downvote, but I suspect people don't like the slippery slope argument ("tracking is omnipresent on the web, therefore it's OK to do it in the real world as well"). Then there's "better shopping experiences" which most people's BS translators will read as "worse shopping experiences / persuading people to spend more than they intended".

Yeah that is one perspective for sure.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that it is justified or moral. Whatever you think about 'right' or 'wrong', you have to realize that a person who builds a store is going to want to know everything about how his or her store is used. EVERYTHING. That's not good or evil, that's just logical.

Acting like it should be self evident to a store owner that tracking users is inherently wrong is just ignoring the viewpoint of the store owner wholesale. Does not lead to good policy.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#252

Post by userbinator »

bsimpson wrote: post #209
userbinator wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbingly creepy to think that stores would even think of doing this, but on the other hand it's also an indication of how clueless the general population is about the amount of identifiable data they're unconsciously "leaking" through personal, (nearly) always-on devices. My laptop is setup with a random MAC precisely to prevent this sort of tracking. Interestingly, the unbranded Android phones I have (one l…

I'm a technologist and I didn't know that devices advertise their MAC addresses when scanning for WiFi until someone in that business told me. I always thought it was the other way around (base stations advertise themselves and devices affiliate with ones they recognize). Though accurate, "clueless" is a bit harsh. I don't expect the general public to know the implementation details of WiFi any more than I expect the…

The beauty of an abstraction is that you get to reap its benefits without understanding precisely how it works.

...and get to be manipulated and screwed over by the people who do.

While I don't expect the general public to know the details of WiFi down to e.g. the level of the 802.11 spec, I think that some general ideas, like the difference between passive/active scanning, are both simple enough to be understood by analogy and critical to privacy that they should be known more prominently.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#253

Post by userbinator »

sbierwagen wrote: post #239
nnnnni wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, my name is Guy Incognito. My email address is gincog@example.com. Unless it requires you to click a confirmation link or something similar to that, just use a fake address at one of the example.TLD domains. If they DO require confirmation, use mailinator or a similar service.

Catch 22 there: you have to be able to access mailinator.com in order to generate a throwaway email.

Requiring email confirmation assumes the fact that the user can already connect to the Internet to access his/her email to read the message, throwaway account or not, so that wouldn't work too well...

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#254

Post by Nikker »

thefreeman wrote: post #199
hubert3 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is incorrect - Probe requests do not contain the MAC of the AP, only the SSID. Wifi clients usually only save the name and security type/PSK of previously joined networks. In many situations, the same SSID is broadcast by multiple different APs with different MAC addresses in the same area so it wouldn't make sense to remember a specific SSID/MAC pair. If the same client (iPhone) probes for a list of…

each individual probe request will be coming from a randomized MAC, so there shouldn't be any "list" of SSIDs to compare.

Each device sends beacons out at an interval. By sorting all the probes by these intervals (10Hz or what ever) each will likely be slightly different from each other. So my device sends probes out at 0s another will send it out at 0.5s. Also by co-relating these beacons by signal strength well the random MAC doesn't really matter.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#255

Post by maxmax »

fooqux wrote: post #217
bcohen5055 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this so creepy? They know a piece of hardware has been in certain locations for a certain amount of time. This data can help improve your shopping experience and help the store better market to you. (While also increasing their sales). There is nothing personal about at MAC address go ahead and track it. Also... Yes keeping your phone in Airplane mode is a bit paranoid.

Assuming they track every single purchase made at a store along with the credit card number used (or at least some form of ID associated with that particular card), and all the times the MACs left the store, how many sets of data do you think they need to get a 1:1 match between MAC and person? Even for really large stores, I'm guessing it would only take 2-3 visits before they can link you to POS records with decent…

Just wait until they implement dynamic pricing.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#256

Post by nnnnni »

userbinator wrote: post #253
sbierwagen wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catch 22 there: you have to be able to access mailinator.com in order to generate a throwaway email.

Requiring email confirmation assumes the fact that the user can already connect to the Internet to access his/her email to read the message, throwaway account or not, so that wouldn't work too well...

Connect with your phone long enough to confirm?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#257

Post by smsm42 »

alister wrote: post #189
meepmorp wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in a shopping mall recently, where the free wifi required your name and an email address before letting you use it. Fuck that.

Name and email, you say? Check out the form you need to fill in to use free wifi at Brazilian airports: http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Wi-Fi_and_Internet_se... They want your: name sex marital status nationality place of birth profession identity document type identity document number street address city state country cellular phone number name of cellular provider landline phone number email address barcode…

So they'd learn my name is Al Kapone, my nationality is the proud citizen of the glorious nation of Kazakhstan, my place of birth is the South Pole, my profession is a lion tamer and I live in 666 Fake Street, Garbadedataville. What they're going to do with this information?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#258

Post by smsm42 »

nnnnni wrote: post #256
userbinator wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring email confirmation assumes the fact that the user can already connect to the Internet to access his/her email to read the message, throwaway account or not, so that wouldn't work too well...

Connect with your phone long enough to confirm?

Possible, but never seen free wifi actually do that.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#259

Post by smsm42 »

mobiplayer wrote: post #233
chrj wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't give your name or other identification, how would they hold you responsible if you abused the connection?

It's not that, trust me. They make good money with your data. Take it as a way of payment for the "free" wifi. It helps the same purpose as the loyalty cards, especially the ones that outgrow the original business (I'm looking at you both Tesco ClubCard and Nectar Card). Getting "points" by using those at other businesses like petrol stations helps them profiling you for "better" advertising. They also keep you a bit…

I wonder when that better advertising would actually come along. They keep collecting the data but so far all the ads I've seen is either utterly irrelevant crap or "you visited shoe store so our network would show you the same shoe store's ads for the next 3 months, because it can't be that you don't need buy new shoes every day".

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#260

Post by michaelmior »

gnu8 wrote: post #10
michaelmior wrote: post #5

I hope it still connects with the real MAC address. Otherwise that could get very problematic.

They could make it optional, but having such a technical option wouldn't be Apple's style. Perhaps it could generate a new random MAC address for each saved network, which would be thrown away when you use the 'Forget network' command.

That would probably solve most of the problems I was considering. But somehow I suspect implementing this may be more challenging than it appears.
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