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This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

ariannasimpson.com

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Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#251

Post by throwawaycoder »

jpwright wrote: post #157
2gg2rg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many more posts like this are needed to convince you that the whole community of tech meetups is hostile towards women? A whole lot more, because I don't see this shit at the tech meetups I go to.

Looks like you have some reading to do. Here's a good place to start: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

That list is well known, but I think it shows the opposite of what you claim - contrast the number of incidents to the number of tech events and people involved in tech. Apart from being merely anecdotal anyway.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#253

Post by DorintheFlora »

Crito wrote: post #249
wonderzombie wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you ask? Start by being polite. "Oh, I haven't been introduced. So how are you two connected?" You'll to have to step out of your comfort zone for this even if it is immediately obvious. And if it's normal, you've lost nothing.

Yeah, I do not feel comfortable doing anything even approaching policing other people's relationships. The most I would feel okay with doing is asking "Is everything okay here?" , but even that is quite an ask and I would not consider it unless I noticed that one of the people was visibly upset. Yeah, before you say it, "me feeling uncomfortable" is a pretty selfish excuse for not helping somebody that is feeling a h…

If you care: Sometimes, just looking may help. Just don't turn a blind eye to it, which is what most men do in such situations.

If the woman feels she has a sympathetic supporter, it is easier to defend herself and if the jerk thinks there is an eyewitness to his assholish behavior, he may tone it down without you needing to say something. I think saying something may be counterproductive (because when accused people are quick to justify, and that makes them LESS likely to back off, not more) but just being aware can sometimes help.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#254

Post by throwawaycoder »

cgearhart wrote: post #45
blairbeckwith wrote: post #11

I agree wholeheartedly with this article, however I don't think it's fair to use such a wide brush. "This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at _This_ Bitcoin Meetup" would have been more appropriate. There are bad apples in every community, and it certainly sounds like the author met some, but it's important to realize that a few bad apples don't ruin the whole bushel.

Sounds like "no true Scotsman", to me. Women have faced, and continue to face, challenges in tech circles. It's hard to make progress because the first step is admitting you have a problem, and it's easy for the tech community to think it's someone else's problem. Keep an eye on your own thoughts and challenge assumptions (yours and others) that marginalize gender issues.

On the other hand women also receive special attention in tech circles. I'm not convinced that one is more overwhelming than the other. Maybe some men can't accept female techies, but they should be easy to avoid. Meanwhile the whole tech world is falling over themselves trying to entice women.

Of course if some women take it as an insult if men are enthusiastic about them being interested in tech, there is a problem. In my opinion that is a very stupid way to look at such situations (as the OP did). Just because it is rare to encounter a woman in tech and men therefore act surprised, it doesn't mean they think women are too stupid for it. It just means that it is rare, nothing else. I think usually they really mean it in a positive way if they express their surprise.

How many women do you personally know that you can have a conversation about Bitcoin with? So imagine you actually meet somebody like the OP who has thought about all sorts of aspects of Bitcoin. It is unusual, so personally I would be interested in how/why it happened. What is demeaning about that?

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#255

Post by wonderzombie »

Crito wrote: post #249
wonderzombie wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you ask? Start by being polite. "Oh, I haven't been introduced. So how are you two connected?" You'll to have to step out of your comfort zone for this even if it is immediately obvious. And if it's normal, you've lost nothing.

Yeah, I do not feel comfortable doing anything even approaching policing other people's relationships. The most I would feel okay with doing is asking "Is everything okay here?" , but even that is quite an ask and I would not consider it unless I noticed that one of the people was visibly upset. Yeah, before you say it, "me feeling uncomfortable" is a pretty selfish excuse for not helping somebody that is feeling a h…

Nobody ought to ask you to do something you're uncomfortable with, and nobody ought to expect you to be the social enforcer or whatever. I empathize 100%.

But if a woman's body language seems particularly bad, or you know your friend/acquaintance only just met this person? That seems like a good opportunity to speak up without "interrogating" people, as you put it.

Truth be told, it's more about friends who enable their friends' asshole behavior by looking the other way. Assholes cannot be 100% friendless, nor only friends with other assholes.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#256

Post by dragonwriter »

vacri wrote: post #243
dragonwriter wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said it would be more effective to be proactive at the time. I disagree with him about such a thing spreading like wildfire He didn't say that being proactive at the time would spread like wildfire, he said that being proactive at the time and writing about that experience afterward would.

Yep, that's what I meant. And to be specific, I don't think if the article was "I asserted myself with the groper and he withdrew" would spread like wildfire. It wouldn't reach a particularly different audience to this one, methinks.

Well, I'd say the group interested in and reposting/linking a story of "Addressing the problem directly works" would be very different in composition to the group that tends to repost/link a story of "Bad things happen" alone.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the size/scope/impact of the two groups was about the same.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#257

Post by wtbob »

zeidrich wrote: post #106
meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

I think that the point is less to change it than to report on the fact that it's (still) happening. If she just told him off and he avoided her for the rest of the night, but otherwise she still felt as isolated and ogled, how would that change things? If she picked up a megaphone and shouted about how she needed to be treated with more respect, would she be? Or would everyone just think she was looking for attention…

> The thing is, it's not her responsibility to fix it.

It is her responsibility to fix the things which immediately concern her. This guy's a creep; he was in her vicinity; it was her responsibility to fix the problem he presented.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#258

Post by andrewflnr »

jpwright wrote: post #205
andrewflnr wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda hate to trot out this cliche, but the plural of anecdote is not data. No number of posts should convince anyone without additional evidence that they represent a large fraction of women's experiences.

I wonder what sort of proof you are looking for. I too would love to see some studies on this. Is there a percentage at which you would care? In the mean time, I'll send you this link as well -- http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents -- to at least show that this exact type of incident happens all the time.

I care now. Bringing up the hypothesis that "the entire community of tech meetups is hostile to women" is a red herring. Whether it's true or not, the response is the same: call out the bad behavior when it happens. The only interesting question to me is the tactical one of how to do it in a way that only embarasses the guilty party, instead of making an awkward situation worse.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#259

Post by wtbob »

runjake wrote: post #15
meritt wrote: post #3

> In my mind, it’s a little preposterous that if I want to do so, however, I have to be ok with being felt up and indirectly insulted. To the author: You're right, it's unacceptable but you know how to fix it? You say something at the point in which it occurs. Nip it in the bud. Running off to write yet another gender-division-in-the-tech-world blog which will be read, primarily, by the sort of folk who already agree…

I'm really turned off by these posts, too. I roll my eyes and mutter "Christ, not another one". But I'm a male who doesn't have to worry about being groped and I keep my hands to myself. But let me guess how the reality turns out for her: - She says something about it. - The guy who is misbehaving is probably physically bigger than her. She may feel fearful of speaking up. or - She speaks up and gets called a "prude"…

> The guy who is misbehaving is probably physically bigger than her. She may feel fearful of speaking up.

She was there with a friend, and two have an advantage over one in a physical confrontation.

Re: This is What it's Like to Be a Woman at a Bitcoin Meetup

#260

Post by throwawaycoder »

davorak wrote: post #212
rfnslyr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this article even exists means she didn't do anything about it. It's not a helpless matter at all, but she's acting as if this is such a big event it warranted a whole essay on the matter. Like she just couldn't WAIT to leave the male stronghold of this meetup to seek emotional counselling online. I am very open minded to problems that matter. There is no problem here. She ran into a super duper asshole…

> She ran into a super duper asshole Well not just that. If anyone at the meeting made it clear that the comments that were happening were not appropriate or welcome either I missed it in the article. It most people this creates the perception that it is acceptable behavior according to group standards. I would bet this perception of group standards is studied phenomena that is the default perception by the majority…

If she doesn't say it's inappropriate, how are other people to know that it isn't? It would be really awkward to approach two people and tell them "hey what you are doing is inappropriate" if none of them has signaled anything wrong.
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