This is a perfect time to apply Holmes' "bad man theory of law."[1] Sign the agreement AND disparage them all you want. Sure, you could wait the two weeks and cash the check first to be extra cautious. After that, what are they really going to do? People like to imagine being dragged into court to determine whether disparagement (whatever that means) actually took place. The author even says the disparagement has to be untrue. That doesn't sound like anything any company wants to litigate. Can they cry and scream and say you broke the agreement? Sure, but so what? Their remedies are few and far between and you are long gone. If you really want to cover your end, just get a job first, then disparage away. Happy disparaging!
Fired? Speak No Evil
251–260 of 378 posts
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that employers pay any premium whatsoever for these extra clauses. Have you ever heard of jobs with these conditions being paid more? So exactly what "consideration" are you talking about?
The consideration was the severance payment, which in the article was worth two weeks of salary.
Are you really asserting that employers who don't ask leavers to sign gag-clauses usually pay zero severance??
On the contrary, I assert that severance pay is normal with or without the gag-clause. So the employer has put the "value" of signing agreement at zero.
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#253I think the issue that Will Blythe might face now is that he has now alienated himself against future employers. Here is a guy who is willingly going to criticize a company he leaves (or maybe even currently employed at), just because he feels like it. There once was a hugely popular tech gossip newsletter in Chicago that once publicly criticized an employer for screwing over his part-time editor in some sort of busi…
So on the money re: I'm not a racist but.. (ie I'm not going to lie to you..
Especially for someone in an editorial position, which is a pretty interchangable hire. First result, first page on Google for searches on his name will be that article in which he publicly discloses a VC/employer decision on burn rate, and this company health.
I'd never hire the guy.
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
Such contracts ("produced on own-time belongs to company") are common at large software companies. If you are in California, such a contract may not hold water. Any one have experience with a big co (outside Cali) where they were able to negotiate this clause away?
I'm in NYC and was able to strike it off. I just explained to the company that I enjoy working on iOS apps as a side hobby, and wouldn't want that to be a problem. They removed the clause from the contract, it wasn't a big deal. My company isn't that big though (~30 devs).
Just be careful if you ever work on a side business or project that is similar to what your employer does. They can claim your IP rights under some circumstances by claiming it was what they hired you do to. And NEVER work on it at work or with work resources. Never.
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#255And I was soon informed that the president wished to assure me that there is nothing unusual about such clauses Whoop whoop whoop! This sets off giant alarm bells in my head. It might be totally normal. That doesn't mean you should sign it. It's also an older-than-dirt salesman tactic to say that something you just made up is "totally common." Of course, the company can attach whatever clauses it wants to a separatio…
I've been through the process twice, and in neither case was there any pressure to sign the document. In both cases I was advised to speak to a lawyer if I was unsure or uncertain about anything, to feel free to contact them with any clarifications and in one case I expressly forbidden from signing it in the HR office and told to mail it back.
A lawyer would tell you that such a clause is common, is somewhat enforceable, and rarely enforced. The situation primarily being avoided is airing specific, proprietary, disparaging information.
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
Depending on where you are, "severance", or the 2-week pay after you have been told you do not have a job anymore, may or may not be a worker's right.
IANAL, but while that may be true in general, California (where the author was employed[0]) is an at-will state, and most people reading HN (in fact, most people working at startups in general) are likely to be employed at-will. AFAIK, that means that they are not entitled to any severance unless their initial contract stipulated otherwise. [0] Actually, where the company was based we don't know which employment laws…
IIRC, the author lives in NYC, so I assume he was working remotely. If that was the case, which states laws apply? What if one of the states is an at-will state and the other isn't?
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
IANAL, but while that may be true in general, California (where the author was employed[0]) is an at-will state, and most people reading HN (in fact, most people working at startups in general) are likely to be employed at-will. AFAIK, that means that they are not entitled to any severance unless their initial contract stipulated otherwise. [0] Actually, where the company was based we don't know which employment laws…
While working in at-will states, the severance agreement may in fact be the first document you sign that is actually legally binding upon the company in any way. Most offers I see are clear that the letter is not a contract, and no contract can even exist without direct and explicit intervention by the CEO. And that seems to be a left-handed way of saying that if you do try to get an actual contract, you will not be…
It isn't unprofessional to abruptly walk out on the job if giving notice was never in the requirements.
I don't think "unprofessional" means what you think it means. It is not, for instance, a synonym for "illegal."
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#258And I was soon informed that the president wished to assure me that there is nothing unusual about such clauses Whoop whoop whoop! This sets off giant alarm bells in my head. It might be totally normal. That doesn't mean you should sign it. It's also an older-than-dirt salesman tactic to say that something you just made up is "totally common." Of course, the company can attach whatever clauses it wants to a separatio…
Whoop! Whoop! Dat's the sound of da police!
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never agreed to these since graduating university. One time someone tried to get me to sign that anything I invented for the next 3 years that was related would be their property. I've found three good pushback techniques: 1. "My [insert family member] is a lawyer and I haven't seen this clause before, so I'm going to get her to read over the agreement." Next day I just say that they won't let me sign it. Why ma…
Those are good techniques. What's the third one?
I'm really bad with off by one errors haha. My last technique is if they verbally agree I follow it up with an email of them agreeing that I'm allowed to work on my side project. This was actually during a coop term, which is why I forgot.
Re: Fired? Speak No Evil
#260I would only say this -- sticking to facts, avoiding emotionally-charged or conclusive words (e.g. "dishonest", "evil"), and -- perhaps extreme cases -- not naming names makes the claim of disparagement much harder to stick.
For example, consider the following:
I bought a widget from an online retailer. It arrived broken. It took two emails and three calls to get an RMA. Once received, it took three weeks to receive a refund.
Versus
Online retailer X is evil.