It's great to see other companies experimenting with openness in salaries. We've taken a different approach and pay all employees (including founders) the same salary which increases as the company grows. Our team is now 8-people strong and it's working great so far. As long as you contribute to the bottom line everyone's salary goes up automatically. It's totally transparent, no negotiations required, reviews, etc.
Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
251–260 of 352 posts
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#252I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…
> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…
"Everyone I know over 40 wouldn't dare talk about their salary, or how much they paid for their house, etc. Everyone I know under 30 will happily talk about it to anyone and everyone"
That's because they (the <30's) grew up with FB and are used to sharing everything with the world.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it? This happens all the time anyways, hiding the salary of the employee isn't going to make any difference in most cases. And is it so hard to guess what some (say iOS engineer) earns? The sa…
Why is a Senior iOS engineer (Andy) on a "Intermediate: 1.1X" multiplier? - you can't be Senior and be intermediate in my book. Seems he needs his multiplier upped to the proper level. $107k is low for a iOS Dev in the Bay Area.
That's the first thing I noticed too. Senior iOS Dev making 1k more than a CHO? Only their employees know the culture and value everyone provides but that sort of thing would make me uncomfortable.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…
>If you're happy to make $88k and the guy doing the same job next to you is making $110k, I don't see any problem One problem is that the first person is often female, not white or foreign. Another is the demotivational effect when the first person eventually does find out they are underpaid versus colleagues or the market - and they generally do. And then they will leave. It gets worse when the lower paid person is…
"And then they will leave."
Surely that's a risk that a company takes knowingly and can adjust if they wish?
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#255It's interesting the number of employees that chose the "+$10K more salary instead of more options" option. What does this tell you?
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is a Senior iOS engineer (Andy) on a "Intermediate: 1.1X" multiplier? - you can't be Senior and be intermediate in my book. Seems he needs his multiplier upped to the proper level. $107k is low for a iOS Dev in the Bay Area.
That's the first thing I noticed too. Senior iOS Dev making 1k more than a CHO? Only their employees know the culture and value everyone provides but that sort of thing would make me uncomfortable.
Why's that? The iOS Dev probably does more actual, real work.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suppose it is true that when we turn 40 our brains rot. All we care about is keeping kids off of our lawn and catching the early-bird special. Many people don't like to share their salary - not because they wouldn't "dare" as if they are cowardly or not as enlightened as you. Some people find talking about personal salary or wealth to be distasteful - like a braggart yammering on about his expensive possessions. If…
My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply people are cowardly or I'm more enlightened, or anything like that. The word I was looking for is taboo. I believe that the baby boomers find talking about money to be a social taboo, while younger generations do not. It's not about any group or generation being better, I think it's just a change in what society finds acceptable. (To be honest, I'm not sure Gen Y'ers find anythi…
Hehe, no worries. It probably is somewhat due to our generations, but it may also be that as you age your salaries naturally will begin to diverge. And with a certain amount of success it's not exactly smart to go around broadcasting your wealth. I personally am self conscious about coming off as a rich jackass when I go to my hometown and visit my high school friends who are working for minimum wage.
For a venture funded start-up, over-sharing finances seems somewhat ill-advised to me. I guess maybe I am old and I just don't get it!? According to their blog they have a payroll burn rate approaching $2 million per year. Maybe they are grizzled veterans who have been in startups that run low on money and they have tricks up their sleeve. Maybe not - maybe they're just a bunch of kids who have never done this before and think that the money will keep flowing no matter what happens. Maybe their over-sharing will not put them at a serious disadvantage when negotiating because everybody will know their level of desperation for cash. Maybe their employees will not become very nervous and start leaving when the funding situation becomes scary? I only just took a really quick look that them and I don't know the answer to these things, but it doesn't seem like it really benefits them that much to share their corporate finances.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…
"Everyone I know over 40 wouldn't dare talk about their salary, or how much they paid for their house, etc. Everyone I know under 30 will happily talk about it to anyone and everyone" That's because they (the <30's) grew up with FB and are used to sharing everything with the world.
Some things you just don't share with anyone. That's one of the reasons we still wear clothes.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#259I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…
I had a boss bully his employees with fellow employee salary information. (i.e. bill took a pay cut because of the recessions, so should you...) As far as I'm concerned, salary is a completely private matter that is no one elses business, and no good could possibly come from sharing it. I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we…
> I see this openness at buffer essentially being a tool for management to deny raise requests, etc... with... If we do it for you, we have to do it for everybody... which is a just a BS excuse to not face the reality that every persons value and work situation is different, and should be treated differently.
Their salary formula accounts for experience, company performance, and role. Having the openness and formula makes it easy to say no to arbitrary salary-increase requests and also makes it easy to have a fair raise in place "automatically". Sure, the formula is not perfect, but as the zen of python goes, explicit is better than implicit. Changing the formula or the parameters to it may be a wise thing for the company to do at some point, but it will likely be clear what the change is and why is it beneficial to the company. That sounds a lot better than the way that salaries are typically negotiated.
Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer
#260Does anyone have an opinion on how these numbers square with market rates? I make $113k/year as a juniorish engineer at a VC backed startup in SV. Am I hilariously overcompensated?
You make what you should make in SV - I think 100-120 base is about average for new hires. Guys at Buffer are underpaid though.