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Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

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Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#251

Post by falkensmaize »

banbangtuth wrote: post #53
yacthing wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy to say if you either: (1) already have enough money to survive without working, or (2) don't realize how hard of a life it would be to "flip burgers" to make a living in 2026. We live very good lives as software developers. Don't be a fool and think you could just "flip burgers" and be fine.

Ah, I actually did flip burgers. So I know. I also did dry cleaning, cleaning service, deli, delivery guy, etc. Yup I now have enough money to survive without working. But I also am very low maintenance, thanks to my early life being raised in harsh conditions. I am not scared to go back flipping burgers again.

"I am not scared to go back flipping burgers again."

You should be - in all likelihood you'd have to work 3 burger-flipping jobs to make enough money to pay rent and buy food. Inflation and housing issues have hit a lot harder than most people who make 6-figure incomes realize. It's really tough out there right now. I am very, very grateful for the income I have and don't take it for granted.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#252

Post by throw1235435 »

luckylion wrote: post #219
throw1235435 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - I agree with that, and I agree its good for society but as you state probably not as good for the SWE who has to work harder for the same which was my point and I think you agree. Other professions have done what you have stated (i.e. certification) and seen higher wages than otherwise which also proves my point. They see this as the "street smart" thing to do, and generally society respects them for it puttin…

> Other professions have done what you have stated (i.e. certification) and seen higher wages than otherwise which also proves my point. I'd generally agree with that if it regards to safety (e.g. industrial control systems), but we manage that by certifying the manufacturer, not the individual developer. But otherwise I think it's harmful to society, even if beneficial to the individuals - but there's a lot of thing…

> But otherwise I think it's harmful to society, even if beneficial to the individuals

I disagree a little in that stability/predictability to people also adds some benefit to society - constant disruption/change for the sake of efficiency I believe at extreme levels would be bad for mental health at the very least and probably cause some level of outrage and dysfunction. I know as an SWE tbh I'm feeling a bit of it - can't imagine if it was everyone.

I personally think there is a tradeoff; people on average have limits to adaptability in their lifetimes and so it needs to be worth it for people to invest and enter in a given profession (some level of economic profit that makes their limited time worth spending in it). It shouldn't be excessive though - it should be where both client and producer get fair/equal value for the time/effort they both need to put in.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#253

Post by danielbln »

Snuggly73 wrote: post #249
danielbln wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it feels many SWEs have painted themselves into a corner. They love the nose-to-code-grindstone process and chain themselves to the abstraction layer of today. I don't think it's gonna end well for them, let's see.

This type of comment implies that it’s going to stop with “them” and somehow “us that adopted the LLM” will be the winners. The goal is full automation, there is no “adapt or be left behind”.

I don't think in terms of winners or losers, automation will come for all of us. Some of us will be caught by it later than others.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#254

Post by drbojingle »

devin wrote: post #172
drbojingle wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is made of smaller parts. I'd like to think we can sub divide a code base into isolated modules at least.

In the real world, not all problems decompose nicely. In fact, I think it may be the case that the problems we actually get paid to solve with code are often of this type.

Problems like?

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#255

Post by jaapz »

remich wrote: post #83
agumonkey wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two groups of people emerging. deep / fast / craft-and-decomposition-loving vs black box / outcome-only. I've seen people unable to work at average speed on small features suddenly reach above average output through a llm cli and I could sense the pride in them. Which is at odds with my experience of work.. I love to dig down, know a lot, model and find abstractions on my own. There a llm will 1) no…

I get what you're saying, but I would say that this does not match my own experience. For me, prior to the agentic coding era, the problem was always that I had way more ideas for features, tools, or projects than I had the capacity to build when I had to confront the work of building everything by hand, also dealing with the inevitable difficulties in procrastination and getting started. I am a very above-average en…

I think the comprehension part is very important.

When I write my own code without an LLM, it is an extension of my own thinking, my own mental model.

But when I use an LLM, that LLM produces code that I need to comprehend, understand. It's like I'm continually reading some other developers' code, and having to understand their mental model and way of thinking to truly understand the code.

For me, this is very tiring. It just costs more energy for me to review and read other people's code than when I write it myself.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#256

Post by dinkumthinkum »

banbangtuth wrote: post #150
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you but I feel like you (and really others like you, in mass) should not be so passive about your replacement. For most programmers, simply flipping burgers for money to enjoy programming a few hours a week is not going to work. Making a living is a thing. If you are reduced to having to flip burgers that means the economy will gave collapsed and there won’t be any magic Elon UBI money to save us.

We will have bigger problems when that happens. I am not worried.

I mean, the point is to not be passive and push against those bigger problems happening but ok.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#257

Post by johnsmith1840 »

falkensmaize wrote: post #176
johnsmith1840 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I think LLMs will make us all a LOT smarter. Raw code made it so we stopped heavily thinking in between but now it's just 100% the most intense thought processes all day long.

It seems pretty obvious that the opposite is true. I know I’ve experienced some serious skill atrophy that I’m now having to actively resist. There’s a lot lost by no longer having to interact with the raw materials of your craft. Thinking is a skill that is reinforced by reading, designing and writing code. When you outsource your thinking to an LLM your ability to think doesn’t magically improve…it degrades.

Sure my raw coding ability is degraded but my architecting, debugging, and planning have all skyrocketed.

Those always required significantly more though just like before and that's all I do now.

I mean old staff engineers and managers are often not coding at all but they are significantly better designers than a freshgrad that leetcode grinded for 4 years. Isn't that the same argument?

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#258

Post by hecanjog »

falkensmaize wrote: post #250
hecanjog wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this perspective. I'm actually hoping LLM hype will help to pop the bubble of tech salaries, make the profession roughly as profitable as going into teaching, so maybe the gold diggers will clear out and go play the stock market or something, rest of us can stick around and build things. Maybe software quality will even improve as a result? Would be nice...

Man, come on - what planet are you from, seriously? I got into this business because I enjoy programming, but I also wanted to for once in my life make a decent living and be able to save something. I have kids I'd like to send to college. I'd like to be able to retire someday. I have aging parents that need expensive care. This is one of the few professions that you can upskill into without years of expensive degree…

> People need to make money to survive

I very much agree. A million dollar tech salary isn't that though.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#259

Post by learningstud »

If developers are not using TLA+ or Lean4 etc. They are vibe coding. Nothing wrong with that. They just have to realize that they were never in control. Thinking logically is much harder than developers imagined. As Dijkstra observed, the whole field has adopted the mentra, "How to program when you cannot." I estimate that 80% of what developers do can be done once and for all for all of humanity, yet we don't learn. Be offended all you want, but I am fed up with this idiocy given all the usual rebuttals of deadlines etc.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43679634

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