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Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

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Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#101

Post by remich »

llmslave2 wrote: post #52
aspenmartin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is folks talk past each other. People who find coding agents useful or enjoyable are labeled “on the hype train” and folks for which coding agents don’t work for them or their workflow are considered luddites. There are an incredible number of contradicting claims and predictions out there as well, and I believe what we see is folks projecting their reaction to some amalgamation of them onto others.…

I think the reason for the varying claims and predictions is because developers have wildly different standards for what constitutes working code. For the developers with a lower threshold, AI is like crack to them because gen ai's output is similar to what they would produce, and it really is a 10x speedup. For others, especially those who have to fix and maintain that code, it's more like a 10x slowdown. Hence why…

Have you considered that it's a bit dismissive to assume that developers who find use out of AI tools necessarily approve of worse code than you do, or have lower standards?

It's fine to be a skeptic. Or to have tried out these tools and found that they do not work well for your particular use case at this moment in time. But you shouldn't assume that people who do get value out of them are not as good at the job as you are, or are dumber than you are, or slower than you are. That's just not a good practice and is also rude.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#102

Post by simonw »

drbojingle wrote: post #99
simonw wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the participants. If they're cutting-edge LLM users then yes, I think so. If they continue to use LLMs like they would have back in the first half of 2025 I'm not sure if a difference would be noticeable.

What's the difference between using llms now vs the first half of 2025 among the best users?

Coding agents and much better models. Claude Code or Codex CLI plus Claude Opus 4.5 or GPT 5.2 Codex.

The latest models and harnesses can crunch on difficult problems for hours at a time and get to working solutions. Nothing could do that back in ~March.

I shared some examples in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46436885

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#103

Post by luckylion »

throw1235435 wrote: post #69
simonw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how I can prove it, but ~25 years ago building software without open source sucked . You had to build everything from scratch! It took months to get even the most basic things up and running. I think open source is the single most important productivity boost to our industry that's ever existed. Automated testing is a close second. Google, Facebook, many others would not have existed without open source…

Indeed it did; I remember those times. All else being equal I still think SWE salaries on average would of been higher if we kept it like that given basic economics - there would of been a lot less people capable of doing it but the high ROI automation opportunities would of still been there. The fact that "it sucked" usually creates more scarcity on the supply side; which all being equal means higher wages and in ou…

Monopolizing the work doesn't work unless you have the power to suppress anyone else joining the competition, i.e. "certified developers only".

Otherwise people would have realized they can charge 3x as much by being 5x as productive with better tools while you're writing your code in notepad for maximum ROI, and you would have either adjusted or gone out of business.

Increased productivity isn't a choice, it's a result of competition. And that's a good thing overall, even if it sucks for some developers who now have to actually work for the first time in decades. But it's good for society at large, because more things can be done.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#104

Post by ipdashc »

christophilus wrote: post #89
simonw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how I can prove it, but ~25 years ago building software without open source sucked . You had to build everything from scratch! It took months to get even the most basic things up and running. I think open source is the single most important productivity boost to our industry that's ever existed. Automated testing is a close second. Google, Facebook, many others would not have existed without open source…

25 years ago, I was slinging apps together super fast using VB6. It was awesome. It was a level of productivity few modern stacks can approach.

I'm too young to have used VB in the workforce, but I did use it in school, and honestly off that alone I'm inclined to agree.

I've seen VB namedropped frequently, but I feel like I've yet to see a proper discussion of why it seems like nothing can match its productivity and ease of use for simple desktop apps. Like, what even is the modern approach for a simple GUI program? Is Electron really the best we can do?

MS Access is another retro classic of sorts that, despite having a lot of flaws, it seems like nothing has risen to fill its niche other than SaaS webapps like airtable.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#105

Post by reactordev »

simonw wrote: post #33

This is pretty recent - the survey they ran (99 respondents) was August 18 to September 23 2025 and the field observations (watching developers for 45 minute then a 30 minute interview, 13 participants) were August 1 to October 3. The models were mostly GPT-5 and Claude Sonnet 4. The study was too early to catch the 5.x Codex or Claude 4.5 models (bar one mention of Sonnet 4.5.) This is notable because a lot of acade…

I knew in October the game had changed. Thanks for keeping us in the know.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#106

Post by throw1235435 »

luckylion wrote: post #103
throw1235435 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it did; I remember those times. All else being equal I still think SWE salaries on average would of been higher if we kept it like that given basic economics - there would of been a lot less people capable of doing it but the high ROI automation opportunities would of still been there. The fact that "it sucked" usually creates more scarcity on the supply side; which all being equal means higher wages and in ou…

Monopolizing the work doesn't work unless you have the power to suppress anyone else joining the competition, i.e. "certified developers only". Otherwise people would have realized they can charge 3x as much by being 5x as productive with better tools while you're writing your code in notepad for maximum ROI, and you would have either adjusted or gone out of business. Increased productivity isn't a choice, it's a res…

Sure - I agree with that, and I agree its good for society but as you state probably not as good for the SWE who has to work harder for the same which was my point and I think you agree. Other professions have done what you have stated (i.e. certification) and seen higher wages than otherwise which also proves my point. They see this as the "street smart" thing to do, and generally society respects them for it putting their profession on a higher pedestal as a result. People respect people who take care of themselves first generally I find as well. Personally I think there should be a balance between the two (i.e. a fair go for all parties; a fair day's work with some job security over a standard career lifetime but not extortionary).

Also your notion of "better tools" may of not happened, or happened more slowly without open source, AI, etc which would of meant higher salaries for longer most probably. That's where I disagree with the parent poster's claim of higher salaries - AI seems to be a great recent example of "better tools" disrupting the premium SWE's enjoy rather than improving their salaries. Whether that's fair or not is a different debate.

I was just doubting the notion of the parent comment that "open source software" and "automated testing" create higher salaries. Usually efficiency economically (some exceptional cases) creates lower salaries for the people who are made more efficient all else being equal - and the value shifts from them to either consumers or employers.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#107

Post by ManuelKiessling »

christophilus wrote: post #86
mkozlows wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not remotely cutting edge (just switched from Cursor to Codex CLI, have no fancy tooling infrastructure, am not even vaguely considering git worktrees as a means of working), but Opus 4.5 and 5.2 Codex are both so clearly more competent than previous models that I've started just telling them to do high-level things rather than trying to break things down and give them subtasks. If people are really set in their…

I mostly agree, but today, Opus 4.5 via Claude code did something pretty dumb stuff in my codebase— N queries where one would do, deep array comparison where a reference equality check would suffice, very complex web of nested conditionals which a competent developer would have never written, some edge cases where the backend endpoints didn’t properly verify user permissions before overwriting data, etc. It’s still h…

As someone who’s responsible for some very clean codebases and some codebases that grew over many years, warts and all, I always wonder if being subjected to large amounts of not-exactly-wonderful code has the same effect on an LLM that it arguably also has on human developers (myself included occasionally): that they subconsciously lower their normally high bar for quality a bit, as in „well there‘s quite some smells here, let’s go a bit with the flow and not overdo the quality“.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#109

Post by jghn »

remich wrote: post #87
jghn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of the point here. Once a dev reached a certain level, they often weren't doing much "relaxing code typing" anyways before the AI movement. I don't find it to be much different than being a tech lead, architect, or similar role.

As a former tech lead and now staff engineer, I definitely agree with this. I read a blog post a couple of months ago that theorized that the people that would adopt these technologies the best were people in the exact roles that you describe. I think because we were already used to having to rely on other people to execute on our plans and ideas because they were simply too big to accomplish by ourselves. Now that w…

Exactly. I've been a tech lead, have led large, cross-org projects, been an engineering manager, and similar roles. For years, when mentoring upcoming developers what I always to be the most challenging transition was the inflection point between "I deliver most of my value by coding" to "I deliver most of my value by empowering other people to deliver". I think that's what we're seeing here. People who have made this transition are already used to working this way. Both versions have their own quirks and challenges, but at a high level it abstracts.

Re: Professional software developers don't vibe, they control

#110

Post by senshan »

whynotminot wrote: post #59
tikimcfee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya know, I have to admit feeling something like this. Normally, the amount of stuff I put together in a work day offers a sense of completion or even a bit of a dopamine bump because of a "job well done". With this recent work I've been doing, it's instead felt like I've been spending a multiplier more energy communicating intent instead of doing the work myself; that communication seems to be making me more tired th…

It feels like we all signed up to be ICs, but now we’re middle managers and our reports are bots.

> and our reports are bots.

With no gossip, rivalry or backstabbing. Super polite and patient, which is very inspiring.

We also brutally churning them by "laying off" the previously latest model once the new latest is available.

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