Racism at a gaming company • Hacker News Board

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#251

Post by saraid216 » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:32 PM UTC

pja wrote: post #209

Tipzntrix wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone isn't helping his case. I've been around these kind of complaints in person, and while I know that the injustices taking place are horrible and uncalled for, I also know that the complainer is also (not-so-subtly any more) racist as well. Perhaps he wasn't before he entered the school system or the workforce (not necessarily this job), but saying things like dumbwhite *, bringing up colonization like slavery…

Ah, the tone argument. Are you looking to round out the racism discussion derail bingo card, or just completely clueless?

On HN, you can usually be sure it's cluelessness. On the other hand, it's not really a cluelessness that can be addressed by lecturing about it: there are fundamentals that I've noticed are missing in a lot of people.

It doesn't help that a lot of the language of power dynamics was co-opted by the self-help community, which can often be legitimately criticized in these ways.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#252

Post by prayag » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

Can we please not try to attack the credibility and language of the OP here? Can we please not question his language? He is venting. That's the language you would expect from someone who is extremely frustrated with the harassment he has experienced in the workplace. Can we stick to the point that a tech executive was able to get away with something that would have been unacceptable in almost any other industry.

Even if this IS exaggerated the allegations are still very serious. Times like these are a reminder that the tech industry is still living in the dark ages where sexism and racism is rampant at worst and disconcerting at best. WE will not get past this problem if we keep questioning everyone who raises the issue. We need to be more accepting of the issues that exist instead of attacking the messenger.

I wouldn't say I am disappointed by the discussion here because the HN crowd is generally sheltered from the problems of prejudice(consisting mainly of straight, white, men) but unless we as an industry start accepting this issue we will continue to languish as a one of the most gender and racially lopsided industries in the world.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#253

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

oinksoft wrote: post #242

[deleted] wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Congrats, you found an early picture of the group before they hit it big and made gangsta rap big. Hey, I can do that too. Is this the image your memory conjures up when you think of Dre? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QSIi0iTqOZE/Tqz9waZFr_I/AAAAAAAACF...

[deleted]

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#254

Post by ChuckMcM » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #81

ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience once people get to the point where they want to shout out their hurt/anger to the world they have gone past the 'civil' stage. This person has a pretty much slam dunk case for a hostile work environment, the lawsuit would wake up management to that fact. Now it may be true that work was just the part that took them over the top, but I am not going to dismiss his clearly painful experience because of…

I didn't mean to imply his experience should be dismissed or considered any less "real", just that his own issues seem to extend beyond this situation. I think this post would do much better if he were to remove all his own racism, because it devalues his point. I can't relate to his experience (middle class, white, male) but what I can do is read what he wrote and what jumps out most at me is his own racism. I think…

I think your comment does have value, its why I responded to it, to add context.

Racism and all *ism has an interesting (as in sociological) property that like electric charge is simulates the opposite charge on the other side of the dielectric. I happen to fall into the last unprotected class on the planet (old fat white guys :-) but having worked with and at times managed a very diverse set of folks my entire life it became clear there are people who are racists by 'choice' and people who are reflexively racist.

Lets postulate for the sake of example that racism had a measurable quantity, from 1.0 which is some sort of 'my race is the only one worth anything' to the 0.0 which is complete blindness to race in thought, speech, or action.

The perception of racism or sexism for people whom have discussed the experience with me was that one person could exhibit say 0.5 units of bias, and they they fall into a thought process that everyone is 0.5 racist. It very much shares a sort of 'herd immunity' reflex. If 90% percent of the folks in the group are blind to race issues then the 10% who aren't will stick out. What percentage of people have to be tolerably racist before its toxic? Does it matter? Why would anyone tolerate any sort racism in the work place?

So if person A is racist by choice, which is to say they have done some sort of evaluation and decided that race has an effect which transcends environment or skills, their actions and comments will create in people of that 'other' race a reflexive alter-racism (and always people are not perfect reflectors, for some it bounces off, for others it gets amplified). Now you get something like racism amplification by stimulated emission of insults [1} or something. That sort of situation is, painful, toxic to morale, and legally actionable.

The critical point though is we have to see this sort of missive not as 'professional victims' (although there are such people, painting any individual into that group without first hand knowledge is probably wrong) but as a signal that you have a problem. And getting everyone to buy into the notion that we're all individuals and not everyone finds ethnic jokes or sex jokes funny, is one of the more important jobs for management. As an individual you're best off trying not to be part of the problem.

[1] RASEI? The effect is remarkably similar

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#255

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #81

ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience once people get to the point where they want to shout out their hurt/anger to the world they have gone past the 'civil' stage. This person has a pretty much slam dunk case for a hostile work environment, the lawsuit would wake up management to that fact. Now it may be true that work was just the part that took them over the top, but I am not going to dismiss his clearly painful experience because of…

I didn't mean to imply his experience should be dismissed or considered any less "real", just that his own issues seem to extend beyond this situation. I think this post would do much better if he were to remove all his own racism, because it devalues his point. I can't relate to his experience (middle class, white, male) but what I can do is read what he wrote and what jumps out most at me is his own racism. I think…

[deleted]

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#256

Post by kenko » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #165

tptacek wrote: post #137

Decoder ring for nerds who are unable to read past words like "neoliberal colonizer" without racing to the nearest TEXTAREA: * A black coworker is singled out by another (non-black) coworker with "watch out for that guy, he’s trouble, he talks a lot of shit" * Referring to a latino coworker, that same coworker suggests jokes: "Like ‘you’re a mexican whore’ or like ‘your mother’s a Mexican whore?" * The black coworker…

Brilliant analysis. I am one of the readers who had deep concern for the truthfulness of these observations. If they are true, then he got screwed, royally, and should sue. Except for the pendant comment. That's just a case of taking yourself too seriously. Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility.

"Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility."

So because he's upset that his pendant was mocked (in what sounds like a pretty assy way), he isn't credible?

What were the other nails?

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#257

Post by TheMagicHorsey » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:36 PM UTC

This is one side of the story. Just because the author is a minority doesn't make this a true story. Its possible that the story is true, but I find it highly improbable in SF where juries are HIGHLY favorable towards plaintiffs in civil rights based actions, and where HR departments are trained to follow specific procedures to prevent lawsuits. This reads like a document constructed to support a litigation. I highly doubt any organization with an HR department is going to fail this colossally today.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#258

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:36 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #246

[deleted] wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

None of those people are dressed like they live in W'burg, like the author of this post is. The similarities literally appear to be "hats, denim, black people", and nothing else.

[deleted]

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#259

Post by tptacek » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:38 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #165

tptacek wrote: post #137

Decoder ring for nerds who are unable to read past words like "neoliberal colonizer" without racing to the nearest TEXTAREA: * A black coworker is singled out by another (non-black) coworker with "watch out for that guy, he’s trouble, he talks a lot of shit" * Referring to a latino coworker, that same coworker suggests jokes: "Like ‘you’re a mexican whore’ or like ‘your mother’s a Mexican whore?" * The black coworker…

Brilliant analysis. I am one of the readers who had deep concern for the truthfulness of these observations. If they are true, then he got screwed, royally, and should sue. Except for the pendant comment. That's just a case of taking yourself too seriously. Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility.

The things you think sap his credibility add to his credibility for me; if he was making things up, it would have been easy for him to leave his own politics and sensitivities out of the post to make it more painful for his ex-employer. To me, it reads like he's just venting to his peers. We're the ones making a big deal out of it.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#260

Post by rmc » Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 9:39 PM UTC

shardling wrote: post #238

rmc wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several definitions of racist talk, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)". Lots of people like this definition because it's nice and simple and it means black people in the USA can be racist to white people if they say things like "Dumbwhite". There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinfor…

>There's another definition, which is talk that's designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races. I generally think it's safer to frame in terms of the effect (which you mostly do) than motivation. Even if someone has no ill intent, and simply talks a certain way because they haven't really thought about the issues, their speech still does harm.

Agreed. Some things can be a joke (ie they are funny, they make people laugh, they are told with intent to entertain, not hurt) and can be racist. This is why "but it's just a joke" does not mean the thing isn't racist. Sometimes when someone says a racist joke, the discussion then turns into whether it's funny or not, and if it passes the funny test, it's not racist.

But it doesnt matter if its funny! It matters if its racist!