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Meow.camera

meow.camera

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Re: Meow.camera

#251

Post by gloosx »

squigz wrote: post #240
econ wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does? In what way? I think you underestimate the "normal" labor conditions in some places.

And I think you underestimate the reality of actual slavery. There is nothing remotely comparable between slavery and a modern job. Feel free to make a more substantial argument as to how they are than "it's close enough"

You underestimate the reality of some "modern jobs" out there. There are garment workers in Bangladesh locked inside factories so we can enjoy cheap clothing. There are miners in the Congo working under militia control. There are migrant laborers in Gulf states with their passports seized, forced to work 12 hour shifts every day.

Some modern jobs absolutely contain elements of coercion, abuse, and exploitation that are comparable to forms of slavery.

Re: Meow.camera

#252

Post by econ »

gloosx wrote: post #251
squigz wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think you underestimate the reality of actual slavery. There is nothing remotely comparable between slavery and a modern job. Feel free to make a more substantial argument as to how they are than "it's close enough"

You underestimate the reality of some "modern jobs" out there. There are garment workers in Bangladesh locked inside factories so we can enjoy cheap clothing. There are miners in the Congo working under militia control. There are migrant laborers in Gulf states with their passports seized, forced to work 12 hour shifts every day. Some modern jobs absolutely contain elements of coercion, abuse, and exploitation that a…

I think the point should not be to do away with the term nor water it down but to fight the offending elements across the board.

Re: Meow.camera

#253

Post by scotty79 »

chimprich wrote: post #247
scotty79 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument can be made about humans. Are modern humans better of existing than not? Our lives also tend to be short, miserable and pointless. Especially compared to just not existing and never having to bother with this world's bs.

> Our lives also tend to be short Our lives in the developed world tend to be limited by biology; an average of about 80 years in many countries. Pigs get slaughtered at about 6 months, well before the lifespan they could potentially live to. > miserable If you're feeling constantly miserable, then please get some mental health treatment. > and pointless Possibly, but we are free to try to find some meaning for ourse…

You have such a human perspective on things. Pigs are free to find their own meaning to their lives as well. Why should they be concerned what their lives mean to us? Long and short are relative terms. For you 80 years is long, for me it's short. For you, 6 months is short. For a domestic pig 6 months is long because it's 100% of their lifespan. What's the median lifespan of wild pigs?

For us and pigs our lifespans are dictated by the realities of our environment. Humans are part of pigs environment.

As for miserability of existence, there's no treatment for Weltschmerz.

Re: Meow.camera

#254

Post by aksss »

flkiwi wrote: post #204
aksss wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are more slaves today than ever in the history of the planet simply due to population growth. While everyone WE know thinks slavery is morally evil, most of the world does not hold that view. In fact, I would say the default human view (looking at all cultures across time memorial) is that slavery is the rule not the exception. That doesn't go away with modernity, it goes away with culture.

There’s also a significant conversation about mere illegality and social rejection not actually doing much to address the underlying tendency to exploitation that (a) has prevented reconciliation and relief for formerly enslaved people and their descendants for more than a century and (b) is woven through the labor model common even in the West. Exploited paid laborers aren’t in the same category as enslaved persons,…

No, we’re talking about actual slavery in modern times, not exploited labor. Actual slavery is still very much a thing.

Re: Meow.camera

#255

Post by aksss »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #205
aksss wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are more slaves today than ever in the history of the planet simply due to population growth. While everyone WE know thinks slavery is morally evil, most of the world does not hold that view. In fact, I would say the default human view (looking at all cultures across time memorial) is that slavery is the rule not the exception. That doesn't go away with modernity, it goes away with culture.

To make room for slavery mentally you have to believe that some people are subhuman or at least beneath the threshold for human rights. What's surprising to me is that it's become more common to describe people you dislike as subhuman and to for people to support violence or cruelty toward them. Similarly there is a trend to see hatred and anger as positive goods.

I would avoid analogizing this to the petty political fads of the west. Actual human slavery is still a very real thing in much of the world. Slavery is likely less about making mental room so much as being raised in an environment where it’s normalized. In other words, the mental room was allocated in the new construction of the world view more often than remodeled.

Re: Meow.camera

#256

Post by b112 »

Recursing wrote: post #155
b112 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then be angry at factory farming, not eating meat. There are loads of people that still have a farm, just for them too. Yes, it's generally in rural areas in the West. Yet for thousands of years, people often just farmed to feed themselves! Factory farming sucks. Yet this can be fixed, note that you don't need to full grass feed (as an example) to end factory farming. You just need room for mild grazing. We can easil…

> Then be angry at factory farming, not eating meat. Yes I fully agree with that, you might be interested in this TED talk (linked in my original comment) https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_bollard_how_to_end_factory_f... for what you can do about it

Wow. ted.com has really fallen to the side of lame. Won't let me play with moderate lockdown for CORS and ublock origin in play. Thanks for the link, I'll try to get it to kick

Re: Meow.camera

#257

Post by modo_mario »

rsynnott wrote: post #190
modo_mario wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China lacks animal welfare laws to protect these cats Does it? I remember a lot of outrage on reddit about people that would supposedly be banned from having pets due to low social credit score. Turns out the article was a complete lie and there was just a law introduced that made banning someone from having pets for a specified time a punishment that could be dished out. Specifically in the case of someone convicte…

That's a fairly weak punishment, tho.

It doesn't have to be the only punishment but was one they couldn't give before and it makes more sense. How else would you make sure to prevent it? Life in jail?

Re: Meow.camera

#258

Post by account42 »

aksss wrote: post #201
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree. I have said this in another comment but I feel like its up to us. Slavery wasn't eradicated suddenly and became suddenly morally bad, I think that slowly but steadily we got better though till the point that now everyone mostly considers slavery morally evil. Lets hope the same can be the case with animals as well. I can't emphasize the impact of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqwpfEcBjI&t=25s (ea…

I believe there are more slaves today than ever in the history of the planet simply due to population growth. While everyone WE know thinks slavery is morally evil, most of the world does not hold that view. In fact, I would say the default human view (looking at all cultures across time memorial) is that slavery is the rule not the exception. That doesn't go away with modernity, it goes away with culture.

Who is "WE"? The western world is perfectly happy with prison labor and other exploitative "voluntary" working conditions.

Re: Meow.camera

#259

Post by account42 »

squigz wrote: post #240
econ wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does? In what way? I think you underestimate the "normal" labor conditions in some places.

And I think you underestimate the reality of actual slavery. There is nothing remotely comparable between slavery and a modern job. Feel free to make a more substantial argument as to how they are than "it's close enough"

I think you are just refusing to acknowledge that we really haven't improved all that much as a society. It's easy to define slavery in a way that you can say we got rid of it so you can pat yourself on the back for being enlightened and then proceed to not care about any working conditions close to it. Fact is that many people are forced to do jobs that no one would want to do.

Re: Meow.camera

#260

Post by account42 »

ultrarunner wrote: post #209
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Future generations are gonna look back at us for our treatment of animals, especially farmed animals, much the way we look back at our slave owning ancestors. Absolutely not. People are so much more important than pigs. Or dogs. Or any other animal. This isn’t a comparison a rational, empathetic person would make.

It's already happening. A story about mistreatment of a dog garners reactions like "how can someone act like that to a fur-baby". Same action toward a person and it's elided over as baseline expected violence. By the same token, quasi-deification of animals has happened for a very long time, and all it takes is a mutation of this idea to spread across popular culture.

That's just because dogs and other pets are used as ersatz babies and are thus afforded the the same level of moral outrage when harmed. We accept base violence against adults but not against small children.
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