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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#251

Post by mns »

alsko wrote: post #16
nick__m wrote: post #8

I don't understand the problem that thread solves that zigbee doesn't! The article says that thread doesn't require a hub but it require a border gateway that is almost indistinguishable from a hub. And as far as my home assistant setup is concerned, it doesn't require a hub, only a zigbee radio. The only thing that seems to advantage thread is manufacturers support, but I don't see what's stopped them to regroup aro…

Matter was created by the Connectivity Standards Alliance (CSA), formerly known as the Zigbee Alliance! Basically, Matter is the next generation Zigbee. Thread as a protocol predates Matter, and it is just one of the supported transports, together with Wifi and Ethernet (for now). Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network w…

So we should expect that in around 10 years the CSA and some other companies decide that they want to create a new standard that, but this time make it right, and everyone will have to switch from Matter devices to the next - this time really better and efficient - standard?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#252

Post by J_Shelby_J »

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #60

RIP. The ikea zigbee stuff was close to being best in class. Matter is still an unusable mess.

No it wasn’t. My impression is it’s nice looking, but poorly implemented. I have near 100 zigbee and z wave devices. IKEA stuff is the only ones that have given me problems. I have their square color light panels and had to write a HA automation to flick them every power cycle because they get stuck and nonresponsive.

Maybe I judge them poorly because they’re the cheapest devices I let myself buy? Idk. They look great though.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#253

Post by rcxdude »

jekwoooooe wrote: post #224
markhahn wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where "security" here means "anything not explicitly sanctioned by the vendor is prohibited"?

No it means signed firmware and verified boot…

That's pretty far from the main issue with iot security, and a heck of a lot of the issue with IoT in general, that the hardware gets vendor locked to a vendor that stops supporting the software (and wasn't very good at writing it in the first place)

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#254

Post by madwolf »

umbra07 wrote: post #157
madwolf wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... I have an Aqara Matter over Thread smart lock that connects via AppleTV (which is a Thread border router) to Home Assistant. And I can control the lock both with HA and Apple HomeKit. And this whole thing works flawlessly. Aqara, Apple, open source HA. Never thought this would be so smooth. I think the whole point of Matter is that the devices are manufacturer independent and you can use any device with any…

I have an Aqara Thread over Matter smart lock too. The only thing I can do with it via Home Assistant is remote unlock/lock and get the battery %. I can't do user management or the million other features that require me to use the Aqara app.

Yes, that's true. I think Matter doesn't support yet many of additional configuration stuff. Hopefully that will change as the technology matures. As I use it with HomeKit as well I can do some user management through Apple Home. However, full config with all options only through BT and Aqara app, as you say. At least for now.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#255

Post by Toutouxc »

eternityforest wrote: post #245
Toutouxc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a…

Is HA ready for non-hobbyists yet? It always seems like you need $100+ dollars of hardware to run it well, not just a pi and an SD card. It seems like it's a lot better now, but until recently it didn't seem like it was anywhere near PLC grade reliability. Is it up to the level where you could install it at a non-technical users house and expect it to run for five years without maintenance?

I installed HA Green [0] (and their Zigbee dongle) at my in-laws house, FIL is a non-IT smart guy and is happily managing and even adding his own stuff.

[0] https://www.home-assistant.io/green/

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#256

Post by magicalhippo »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #23
gorgoiler wrote: post #13

My first reaction here was horror: Home Assistant and Zigbee integrate perfectly with IKEA’s devices, and the devices are beautifully designed! Please don’t take these away! Only the other day did I marvel at how a low battery indicator flashes on one of my remotes when I use it. A design flourish that I really appreciated. But I read that Thread supports IPv6 via mesh networking. It did always feel a bit awkward hav…

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future? Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

Z-wave requires certification[1] which includes alliance membership and compliance testing, and there you can do your own stuff using shields or modules[2].

Some manufacturers also make Z-wave devices, like this[3], which has some generic low-voltage inputs and outputs.

So while not as trivial as other things, it's possible to do a lot of DIY stuff.

[1]: https://z-wavealliance.org/development-process-overview-2/

[2]: https://z-uno.z-wave.me/module/

[3]: https://www.fibaro.com/en/products/smart-implant/

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#257

Post by therealpygon »

OptionOfT wrote: post #107
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

I don't think that is entirely correct. Just like Apple HomeKit you can add devices that aren't certified. It shows a warning, but apart from that it functions like a normal device (for as far as I can tell). I have been using https://github.com/t0bst4r/home-assistant-matter-hub to expose my home assistant devices to Google Home without having to expose my Home Assistant to the cloud. Second, certification is what se…

I’d say it was entirely incorrect. PKI and attestation are things done by the manufacturer using a publish open standard. Manufacturers are not required to certify anything or pay a single royalty. Certification is optional and has other benefits which includes jointing the Thread Group (which steers the standard); the costs are simply a way of funding both the certification process (which requires people) and the Group, which also provides support and other resources (which again, requires people).

Basically, it’s not much different than when an Open Source project is supported by a company that separately offers an “Enterprise” option where they host the application and provide additional Enterprise features and support. It’s not required, but a business might choose to do it.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#258

Post by dieortin »

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #242
dieortin wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously using some footnote about Android as proof that Google somehow has any control over Matter?

I am seriously quoting the home assistant docs that tell me I need to involve Google if I want to test my own Matter device, yes. Are you saying the home assistant docs are wrong? Please, elaborate.

You need to involve Google if you want to test your own Matter device on Android, which is an OS made by Google. How does that say anything about Matter itself?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#259

Post by Larrikin »

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #242
dieortin wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously using some footnote about Android as proof that Google somehow has any control over Matter?

I am seriously quoting the home assistant docs that tell me I need to involve Google if I want to test my own Matter device, yes. Are you saying the home assistant docs are wrong? Please, elaborate.

I think you're seriously being so obtuse about the issue that it calls into question whether you're being honest about your belief with issues with Matter. Zigbee had the same requirements for branding, but they were small enough for Chinese makers to ignore and no big companies cared enough enforce. ZWave is generally considered more reliable and they actually enforced their requirements.

I do not want another crappy USB C type experience to satisfy the zero dollar hobbyist. We'll just end up with zero dollar garbage from large manufacturers named Xhflk.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#260

Post by stego-tech »

Eduard wrote: post #222
stego-tech wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The network fragmentation is the point, just like how some businesses would run IPX internally and use a proxy for web/IP traffic to protect corporate infrastructure from malicious devices or software. Not everything has to be on TCP/IP. For smart home connectivity, I’d say that’s a feature, provided said networking standard is just as open as TCP/IP.

> just like how some businesses would run IPX internally when? In the 1990s?

As late as the early 2000s! I was still setting up IPX for some older DOS/Win95 games to play over the LAN as recently as 2008, and my Novell class (last one offered at my college, around 2007) cited several large local companies who were still employing that technique as a “security through obscurity” thing, though the professor was mainly just citing use cases for IPX rather than promoting new implementations of it.
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