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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#21

Post by WhyNotHugo »

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem.

On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#22

Post by nick__m »

api wrote: post #15
mft_ wrote: post #14

Huh... anyone know what this will mean for people with legacy Ikea lightbulbs and hub? e.g. if I add future Ikea lightbulbs or other equipment, will this mean managing them via a different system? (By the by, I've been very happy with Ikea bulbs so far; while other people complain of LED bulbs with a short lifespan, [touches wood] I've not had a single failure with Ikea smart bulbs, with ~7 years and counting on one…

Isn’t this the history of home automation? The money is in getting people locked into a “system,” but the systems are things that tend to rapidly become dated. So people will invest in a system and either get disillusioned due to the downside of lock in or the system goes obsolete and the newer stuff is not compatible because it’s a whole new system. Rinse, repeat. There have been many attempts at industry standards…

That's the strength of a DIY approach backed by a community of users like homeassistant, it doesn't get obsolete.

I will just have make sure that I have a spare zigbee radio in case they eventually disappear from the market.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#23

Post by WhyNotHugo »

gorgoiler wrote: post #13

My first reaction here was horror: Home Assistant and Zigbee integrate perfectly with IKEA’s devices, and the devices are beautifully designed! Please don’t take these away! Only the other day did I marvel at how a low battery indicator flashes on one of my remotes when I use it. A design flourish that I really appreciated. But I read that Thread supports IPv6 via mesh networking. It did always feel a bit awkward hav…

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future?

Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#24

Post by madwolf »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #23
gorgoiler wrote: post #13

My first reaction here was horror: Home Assistant and Zigbee integrate perfectly with IKEA’s devices, and the devices are beautifully designed! Please don’t take these away! Only the other day did I marvel at how a low battery indicator flashes on one of my remotes when I use it. A design flourish that I really appreciated. But I read that Thread supports IPv6 via mesh networking. It did always feel a bit awkward hav…

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future? Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

What? You can buy a very cheap ESP32 with Thread and easily build your own device with Matter/Thread and it will work. Doesn't seem that closed. There is OpenThread that is an open source implementation of Thread. Home Assistant is compatible with Matter over Thread devices... What's closed about this?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#25

Post by nick__m »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #18
nick__m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible when thread use an ipv6 stack over 802.15.4 while zigbee use a simpler stack also over 802.15.4 ? The only thing I see is that manufacturers prefer an ip stack because it's "easier" to develop for.

An excellent question - all I can do is point you at the research. See the top graph here: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/nxmehn/clea...

I should have been more precise, I don't doubt the claim about latency nor speed, but I really doubt that running an ipv6 stack requires less power than running the simpler zigbee stack.

Also one Thread advantage from that discussion made me laugh:

  safe as the internet, using proven IP technologies
But thanks you for answering me!

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#26

Post by 0x000xca0xfe »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #18
nick__m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible when thread use an ipv6 stack over 802.15.4 while zigbee use a simpler stack also over 802.15.4 ? The only thing I see is that manufacturers prefer an ip stack because it's "easier" to develop for.

An excellent question - all I can do is point you at the research. See the top graph here: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/nxmehn/clea...

But does it translate to real world gains? I've developed a Matter (wifi) device and the stack is ridiculously chatty.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#27

Post by whitehexagon »

I only recently discovered and invested in the IKEA ZigBee hardware, about the only product their MBAs havent destroyed. The hardware is very well built, and sensibly priced. What I liked most of all was that the hub was optional, and thus no cloud account required.

I ended up pairing mine with a 'ConBee II' and with a bit of Go code was able to receive sensor data with very little latency, and activate switches and lights very quickly.

What a shame they discontinue such a great product line. But I already decided this is the last home automation technology I'll invest in. ZigBee seems perfectly suited for this role, and no idea why we need yet another new standard. Although I also said that switching away from x10, if anyone still remembers that.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#28

Post by Asmod4n »

madwolf wrote: post #24
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future? Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

What? You can buy a very cheap ESP32 with Thread and easily build your own device with Matter/Thread and it will work. Doesn't seem that closed. There is OpenThread that is an open source implementation of Thread. Home Assistant is compatible with Matter over Thread devices... What's closed about this?

You can’t talk to other devices unless you got the private key of them.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#29

Post by gorgoiler »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #7
vachina wrote: post #5

Haha. Imagine a light switch that becomes obsolete like your wireless router.

Why can’t it keep working via manual control?

These types of switches will always retain manual control. It is common to separate the user facing switch from the actual electronics and everything still works manually. This means you can take any new or existing switch furniture and make it smart:

https://sonoff.tech/products/sonoff-mini-extreme-wi-fi-smart...

This is good because manufacturers of well built physical switches are usually rubbish at technology, and high tech electronics manufacturers are rubbish at making aesthetically pleasing, durable switches. Separating them gives you the best of both of worlds.

The obsolescence is in the radio integration whereby one day you can control it remotely, the next day you cannot.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#30

Post by 0x000xca0xfe »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #23
gorgoiler wrote: post #13

My first reaction here was horror: Home Assistant and Zigbee integrate perfectly with IKEA’s devices, and the devices are beautifully designed! Please don’t take these away! Only the other day did I marvel at how a low battery indicator flashes on one of my remotes when I use it. A design flourish that I really appreciated. But I read that Thread supports IPv6 via mesh networking. It did always feel a bit awkward hav…

> Can anyone here confirm that Matter/Thread will be a bright, open, and happy new future? Sorry, it’s a closed ecosystem. It relies on PKI and device attestation to ensure that only devices from approved partners are usable. It’s unlikely that small players can participate, and zero chance of any homebrew scene.

And manufacturers tend to lock down their Matter devices, too, so you can't flash Tasmota or ESPHome on them. See: Shelly, Sonoff.
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