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I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#251

Post by btc-landlord »

kube-system wrote: post #222
amiga386 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I misspoke, but needing a network connection, needing a smartphone, giving over your details, very likely getting marketing materials you didn't want via app notifications, or email, requiring to comply with terms of service, and at any time the company is free to rescind or change the offer, to me is "paywalling". You are paying out, giving them things of real value, over and above buying the device, and if…

It's annoying, but it's not a paywall. > All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it. For a dishwasher yes, but I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. There are cloud connected devices that I really like. e.g. I like to run my Roomba on-demand after I leave my house, and I think that's an entirely reasonable use case. Many ot…

[flagged]

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#252

Post by mindslight »

Avamander wrote: post #9
pavel_lishin wrote: post #5

I suppose this means that in the future, when I shop for a home appliance, I'll have to download their manual first and scan for things like this.

Unfortunately unavoidable unless you take the cheapest model and miss out on a lot of features you might otherwise like.

Dishwashers are actually a bit backwards. The cheapest models have one of the most important features (a heating element for drying), and all the more expensive ones leave it out (for Energy Star) and then screw around with various half measures to try and compensate.

Due to this, trying to read reddit recommendations for dishwashers is horrible. People will wax on about how so and so is the best one they've ever owned, then only if you probe a bit it turns out they're using "rinse aid", hand drying half their dishes, running frequent cleaning cycles to get the musty smell out, etc.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#253

Post by forgetfreeman »

dorfsmay wrote: post #131

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind and washes dishes better than any other non-industrial dishwasher I've ever used. 10/10, would recommend, will buy again.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#254

Post by ahaucnx »

This is not only a problem with dishwashers, but a general trend with many electronic devices.

We see the same in the air quality monitoring industry, where more and more manufacturers lockdown their devices and make them cloud only operable. We at AirGradient are open source hardware (and can run completely local) and we are very successful with it. So things like this are actually opening up the market for new entrants or existing companies to highlight the benefits of non-cloud models for the consumers.

So I do hope that these kind of post like from Jeff Geerling create more awareness also among the normal consumers to change their buying behavior and bulk that trend.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#255

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

flandry93 wrote: post #224
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.

Funny how there is always someone who posts "you do X, and you will fail", and then follow up with "you will get hurt and/or hurt others" and then "we will punish you for trying". Like they work for the corporation, to spread the message of hopelessness. Embrace the tyranny of fate! Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too? Or…

99% of people who played with an Arduino in school are not EEs and are woefully unqualified to be doing that sort of tinkering for a hardwired appliance managing high voltages, water valves, and heating elements that can all cause mayhem when a self-taught Dunning-Krugerian steps out of their wheelhouse.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#256

Post by someonehere »

kennu wrote: post #243

I'm really happy with my Bosch washing machine's WiFi. Getting a notification to the phone when the wash cycle is complete is something I wouldn't give up now, since I don't hear the beeping to upstairs. I also wish I'd get notifications from the dish washer, but it's an old model that still works and it's hard to justify replacing it yet. I also have no clue what all the physical buttons on the washing machine's con…

I bought an LG a few years ago and connected it to WiFi. I have no idea what I need to program for special wash cycles, but it’s nice getting a notification on my watch when a load is done or having issues.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#257

Post by AdieuToLogic »

flandry93 wrote: post #224
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.

Funny how there is always someone who posts "you do X, and you will fail", and then follow up with "you will get hurt and/or hurt others" and then "we will punish you for trying". Like they work for the corporation, to spread the message of hopelessness. Embrace the tyranny of fate! Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too? Or…

> Funny how there is always someone who posts "you do X, and you will fail" ...

That is not what the post to which you replied said nor implied. Instead, it reads thusly:

  Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and 
  humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely 
  unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can 
  be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they 
  find out what you did.
This is clearly a warning to those reading this thread. Likely also an attempted knowledge sharing with the post's author.

> Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too?

Maybe all people who attempt such things are not aware of the concerns raised?

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#258

Post by inferiorhuman »

Nursie wrote: post #231
dorfsmay wrote: post #131

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

Is this just an american thing/model? I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start. I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to mor…

The previous generation of Bosch dishwashers in the US were WiFi free. The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything. No idea what the state is of their appliances sold in other markets.

As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#259

Post by userbinator »

hansvm wrote: post #195
theturtletalks wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never buy anything Bosch again after reading this thread. What other reason could Bosch have for hiding this functionality behind a website and user account if not to monetize it down the line or worse, bring more of the functionality behind a paywall. We already saw what happened with HP charging to print and even the recent Chromecast outage where something that should be handled locally is pinging back to G…

> pinging back to Google and then working I still have a bricked Android phone from nonsense like that. If you: 1. Factory reset the phone while not logged in to the last Google account on the phone 2. Have the Google account invalidated (e.g., using an identity verification app on a temp noogler account, ...) You'll never be able to access the phone again. The "factory reset" maintains some internal state despite a…

"Factory reset" is a misnomer, a true factory reset would completely erase the internal storage and replace it with a clean copy of the OS.

If that phone is based on a Mediatek SoC, I believe a true reset is possible - look up SPFlashTool and read about this useful exploit:

https://tinyhack.com/2021/01/31/dissecting-a-mediatek-bootro...

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#260

Post by like_any_other »

ensignavenger wrote: post #210
dorfsmay wrote: post #131

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

Sounds not so much like a Bosch problem as a retailer problem. It was the retailer that lied to you about the machine.

Requiring internet for features that don't need the internet is a manufacturer problem, no matter what any retailer says or doesn't say.
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