Live data from Hacker News

Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

motor1.com

251–260 of 367 posts

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#251

I'm sure one day we will look back and laugh about how we used to install actual mobile power plants in our cars. But as of today, they are still objectively better on many criteria.

What makes you so sure? We don't look back and laugh at people using horses for transportation. We understand that's what they had at the time.

It personally strikes me as a little humorous, particularly from the perspective of a human in (say) 2150. But, not in a mean spirited way. Of course, much respect for the pioneers of the ICE engine and on-going improvements today.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#252
I always wonder about premises in cases like this. a pair of compression-power cycles is a nice way to question the usual. has anyone gone through all the features of a conventional engine and asked: what if there's an alternative?

for instance, what if we're just interested in range-extension? can we transform the motion created by combustion into electrical power in a clever way? cylinder-solenoid coils?

are poppet valves so great? suppose we have some other mechanism to create the motion (solenoids?) or rotating valves? something electromagnetic appeals because it gives complete control over timing (rather than a crankshaft).

rotary engines are appealing, for the same contrarian reasons. but they seem to either have practical problems (wankel) or don't seem to be making it to market (peanut-shaped rotors, etc).

if 6 cycles makes sense (presumably in combustion physics), does it make any sense to burn in one chamber, then move those products to another chamber for some further (potentially different) cycle?

would it help if you could ignite from more than a single place? multiple plugs sounds like a bit of a pain, but could you generate an annular spark? would you want to control the location-timing of the combustion front? does rotating-detonation have any meaning in this context?

are there ways to reconsider the materials engineering of engines? make them dramatically cheaper, lighter? one of the best EV arguments is simplicity, but how much of current IC engineering is based on assumptions that can be broken?

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that also needs to be heavily vilified and taxed.

Ah yes we should all live in a gray bloc working in a gray factory until the end of time Vilifying a d taxing any luxury not only is a ludicrous position, it will only make inequality worse. Its not like the 0.1% will renoujce to it, and taxes don't matter to them.

The parent comment you're replying to is a sarcasm.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re already heavily taxed. But why vilified?

A tax can help common infrastructures (building road) or limit something (cigarettes price) Some people think the ICE car tax(es) already in place are not sufficient compared to the damage they cause. To reduce usage, both tax and public opinion (shaming, vilifying) works great. It’s regrettable the efforts only focus on a car motors, the most dangerous property of a car is it’s weight (and emissions depends on that…

The cars in question are luxury cars that are dime a dozen. I understand heavily taxing ordinary ICE cars, but why luxury ones?

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#255
post #241
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually makes a lot of sense merging with some comments from above. Second stroke goes lower and there are some ports to add air which are not accessed during the initial compression stroke...so the stroke is longer (higher compression) and more air is added to help with the reburn. Kinda sounds like combining the idea of the Miller cycle with a variable compression/stroke setup (see Nissan). There are a lot of…

> Miller cycle Heh all along I'm wondering, what kind of thermodynamic cycle is it? By six strokes, does it mean there are actually distinct new phases to the PV graphs compared to Atkinson/Carnot/Miller? Or is it just masquerading a well-known cycle underneath six strokes, only some parts are being optimised?

Not sure myself...

Seems to be like it is a Miller cycle (or could be) on the initial 4 strokes. Which would allow you to control the timing of the "Compression max point" in the stroke by varying the boost. That may also vary the amount of spent fuel remaining for the second "scavenge" stroke...which if I am reading comments above correctly it pulls air from ports lower in the cylinder which would help clear the cylinder for the next 4 stroke cycle.

Seems to me more focused on reburning/scavenging to make a "cleaner" burn than anything else though.

*Not an engineer...just a shadetree mechanic who reads too deep into engine papers.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#256
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think this is short term. Again no expert just based on what I see. Solid batteries give it few years then the maths will be very different

Not sure. Germans are traditionally both tech xenophobes and cheapskates - two arguments against EVs.

Regarding "cheapskates" - I think you have to see the EV prices in combination with typical German salaries. If a middle-class EV costs more than the yearly gross income of an average German software dev, you know there is not much room for rising sales figures. Especially figuring in the large difference between gross and net income here. Add the lacking charging infrastructure and the current decline in sales is no surprise at all.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it carefully. Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. It is because the additional costs in terms of emissions are paid off in less than 20k miles. This is a little bit more than the average per year. It's possible a car travels less than that during its life span, but it's so small it's irrelevant. That's like saying it makes financial sense playing the lottery just because someone occasionally wins.

> Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. No, my point was “EVs aren’t all that green either”. Things are going to improve. But people so often forgot about all the other environmental costs involved with EV. In an ideal world we’d be using push bikes, but clearly that’s not practical either. However it’s fair to say that this whole transportation debate is a lot more complicated than people like to summarise.…

Direct quote:

In fact for some use cases they can actually work out both more expensive to run and less environmentally friendly once you total up their carbon footprint in full.

End quote.

No, once you total up their carbon footprint they make up their additional costs in carbon in less than 20k miles.

As far as bikes are concerned, I've never owned a car in my life and I'm 40. Locally I go on foot, bike and rarely public transport and long distance by train and I rarely fly. So if you want to join me, fell free to, it's am awesome way to live. If not, EVs are a much better option.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#258

If I remember correctly the engine in the Mazda Millenia was a Miller cycle engine and did something unconventional like this. Props to Mazda for trying new stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Millenia

Mazda has marketed half a dozen weird engines, all of which were crap. It has been a remarkable streak of stubborn, unwanted innovation from such a small carmaker.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#259

I always wonder about premises in cases like this. a pair of compression-power cycles is a nice way to question the usual. has anyone gone through all the features of a conventional engine and asked: what if there's an alternative? for instance, what if we're just interested in range-extension? can we transform the motion created by combustion into electrical power in a clever way? cylinder-solenoid coils? are poppet…

Iirc Koenigsegg is using camless valves (using solenoids?)

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#260
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Europe and China aren't doing so bad on charging infrastructure.

It's not bad but it's nowhere near what the US has. Not just availability of chargers but also the average kW rate.

The following link says 5x more chargers in EU than US (and twice as many EVs):

https://apricum-group.com/ev-charging-infrastructure-race-in...

Rapid charging is now widely available (certainly could be more)

Post reply on HN