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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#251

Post by gwd »

worrycue wrote: post #80
gwd wrote: post #4

"...what is it we need but more life? What does the infant need but more life? What does the bosom of his mother give him but life in abundance? What does the old man need, whose limbs are weak and whose pulse is low, but more of the life which seems ebbing from him? Weary with feebleness, he calls upon death, but in reality it is life he wants. It is but the encroaching death in him that desires death. He longs for…

> What does the old man need, whose limbs are weak and whose pulse is low, but more of the life which seems ebbing from him? The old man needs health and life. Without health, life would just be a tortured existence and at some point "enough is enough".* * It doesn't help that for many old people, all their friends are also gone. Without their social circle, it's one less reason to hang around.

I think you missed Macdonald's point. He's saying that "real life" is not simply the continuance of conscious existence, but "human thriving". If the man could achieve human thriving without health and without friends, then he'd be fine; it's precisely because he cannot achieve "human thriving" without health and without friends that that he says "I'm tired of life". Health problems, pain, and loneliness aren't life, but a form of death. So, MacDonald says, he's not tired of life -- he's tired of the continuance of conscious existence without life; he is, in fact, tired of death.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#252

Post by chalcolithic »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

find a spouse that dreads the problems you've listed and you'll be amazed by how easily they can be solved

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#253

Post by comeondude »

As somebody who have been in and out mental hospitals, this is very familiar.

At one point in my early twenties, I was literally thinking about killing myself every single waking second.

Finally I decided to throw in the towel, and got around to planning my end.

Sat there, ran through various scenarios in my head. All the way up to putting the gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger.

My imagination always terminated in blackness. Nothingness.

Then I realized I didn’t want to die, but didn’t want to live this way. And promised myself that I would do everything in my power to heal.

It took me about 15 years to get where I am now. Stable and mostly at peace with myself, but it was an arduous and painful journey - with many terrifying moments where I couldn’t see a way out.

I’m incredibly grateful that I managed to figure it out and I wouldn’t wish that agony on anybody.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#254

Post by jimsimmons »

niea_11 wrote: post #224
atchoo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide? Using metaphors of physical reality for psychological states can make it falsely appear more immutable that it is. It is possible to escape the burning buildings of the mind and knowing that you have agency over your ideas can be an essential part of the reframing/rethinking/challenging that can free you from suffering. Letting people believe they are in a si…

Sorry, I never read the quote as supporting suicide as a decision. But it's possible that a person contemplating suicide might see it that way. I always read it as being about empathy. Explaining that sometimes a person's action probably have subjectively valid reasons that we should try to understand, or at least try to accept. I read the gp comment's quote the same way that's why I shared this one.

It isn’t seen an condoning suicide. GPs point is more that his eventual suicide makes him less of an authority here. Bit like a relapsing addict trying to justify his drug use

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#255

Post by dbrueck »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

Hehe, for fun you should bookmark your comment and refer back to it every 5 years.

If you're open to it, here are a few ideas to noodle on:

- A lot of what you find fun/interesting changes over time. The partying of the 20s was fun, in its way, but now seems mostly pretty silly, superficial, and (sorry for saying this) childish and dumb. I'm not saying it is, just that your notion of fun changes, and if now I had the power to do absolutely anything I wanted, "partying" would not be even in my top 100 list because there are so many things that are more fun and fulfilling. Ask a 3 year old how they'd love to spend their time.

- Many details of life are outside your control, but you still have a huge influence on things. If you end up in your 40s in a marriage where the flame has gone out, that's mostly on you and your partner - it definitely doesn't need to be that way. Just because it seems common for people to get married and stop courting/dating each other doesn't mean you have to. Ditto for things like a job. In both cases, there's an element of settling in and coasting that's easy to do but doesn't necessarily produce the long term results you really want. Gotta begin with the end in mind and course correct over time, but also have to avoid obsessing over the imperfections and less-than-ideals of life, because there will always be plenty of those.

- The number of kids you have is a pretty private choice, but if approach it with either cynicism or idealism then you'll likely be disappointed. It's a roller coaster, it's hard, kids will absolutely drive you crazy sometimes. But it can also be a source of joy and purpose to a degree that might be incomprehensible to you right now. I'm trying to be careful here because it is a sensitive topic, but compared to being single, it's hard to really explain how much depth and substance having a family has added to my life. In retrospect it feels like life didn't really begin until then. Lots of cool stuff and adventures before then, of course, but... yeah.

- Your kids eventually go away. I mean, it's obvious, right, and yet I didn't really appreciate it until it happened. That stage of life where kids are at home is actually relatively short. It's so temporary. You'll always be a parent, but suddenly you find yourself on the other side of it with a whole lot more time for hobbies and travel and whatever else and yet you don't really feel all that old yet.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#256

Post by vaidhy »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #229
petesergeant wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end his life ... it sucks, no matter what opinions we hold on the matter His brother disagrees with you, explicitly answering an anti-euthanasia protester with: "I am just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his abuse"

He could have ODed on opium from the dark web. He could have networked with other suicidal people to find a humane way to kill himself (or be killed). I hate that people steelman governmental oversight and approval of suicide by strawmanning the other options. In countries which legalize euthanasia it becomes easier to do it for more reasons. Just keep it illegal, but don't prosecute people who try to do it. When a p…

I would think my right to live also includes my right to die with dignity.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#257

Post by ethanbond »

comeondude wrote: post #253

As somebody who have been in and out mental hospitals, this is very familiar. At one point in my early twenties, I was literally thinking about killing myself every single waking second. Finally I decided to throw in the towel, and got around to planning my end. Sat there, ran through various scenarios in my head. All the way up to putting the gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger. My imagination always terminated…

Thank you for sharing and I’m glad you made it/are making it every day.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#258

Post by naasking »

plandis wrote: post #187
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #30

This is something that I have had some personal experience with. I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of others. Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing. Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then, they have personal experience (not just an opinion). It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end it all. In others, like this one[0], I fin…

> I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well This sounds extremely callous unless you were the dead man’s therapist or close personal friend. Surely you’re not going to infer you understand the situation from news articles. > proven alternate solutions Plenty of people seek help and yet still die of alcoholism despite trying to fix the addiction. There…

> Surely you’re not going to infer you understand the situation from news articles.

Surely you're not presuming you understand the horrors that the OP has himself witnessed or been privy to? For all you know the OP could have been working with addicts for 50 years and literally seen it all. Maybe be a bit more charitable.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#259

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

dale_glass wrote: post #240
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I just find it hard to care about skin cancer all that much. I gotta die from something at some point, and I feel like covering my skin in nasty oils and stuff on every nice summer day is too much a price for me just to die from "not skin cancer". Because now every nice day is a little bit less nice. Ofc I'm a bit lucky because I can at least tan somewhat, so if I just taper up my sun exposure in the spring…

There are better and worse ways of dying though. Getting cancer while you're still young enough to have fun and enjoy life and spending a lot of time in pain and going from one doctor to another isn't really how I want to go.

You say that as if there's a choice when really there isn't. It's fundamentally out of my control what kills me. Hell, the cancer could be growing already, or the clot or aneurism. And the amount of crap you get exposed to just drinking the water and breathing the air these days, not to mention the food you eat. You could try to minimise carcinogens but in the end it's basically a lost battle unless you completely isolate yourself from society and the outside world.

Also, if I do get terminal cancer I'm not doing those cycles of pointless chemo and radiation. I'll simply live on until the cancer becomes too unbearable, at which point I'll accept my fate and die.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#260

Post by dgb23 »

comeondude wrote: post #253

As somebody who have been in and out mental hospitals, this is very familiar. At one point in my early twenties, I was literally thinking about killing myself every single waking second. Finally I decided to throw in the towel, and got around to planning my end. Sat there, ran through various scenarios in my head. All the way up to putting the gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger. My imagination always terminated…

This is the type of achievement I find incredibly awesome and inspiring.

It’s overcoming oppressive challenges and build up not just from nothing, but in a way from a negative, draining state.

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