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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#251

Post by mcv »

BrandonS113 wrote: post #99
wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

I had to spend a few months in Holland for work. We we left with the problem of what do do on the weekends. You can't rent bikes if you are not Dutch, and visiting the lovely villages and other places Holland is full of is a time consuming exercise in futility unless one has a car. A train is great for Rotterdam-Hague-Amsterdam, not so good for visiting the Bosch museum in 's-Hertogenbosch. Holland has a great road s…

> You can't rent bikes if you are not Dutch

Why not? Where are you trying to rent? There's bike rentals specifically aimed at tourists, and most people speak English reasonably well.

> A train is great for Rotterdam-Hague-Amsterdam, not so good for visiting the Bosch museum in 's-Hertogenbosch.

I just checked, and from Amsterdam, the train to that museum is actually slightly faster than a car. Though you do have a 15 minute walk at the end. Perhaps Den Bosch should run a bus line there.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#252

Post by noobermin »

refurb wrote: post #122
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

It's similar in Singapore which arguably, because of its size has amazing public transport. But what do a lot of people do if they can afford it? Buy a car, especially if you want to live away from the city center and have kids. They even pay the $100,000 fee for a 10 year permit to have a car, on top of 100% import tax. That's close to $175,000 just to own some tiny 3-cylinder car for 10 years.

Singapore was literally rebuilt for cars very much like America. It's not because cars are better, and even so drivers are miserable here they rank low on waze's rankings of happy drivers, with Netherlands much further up the pack. All new developments (HDB as well) are even more car centric. If you can drive, you are afforded privilege in some respects, and so that's why people do it.

Also, "live away from the city center and have kids" ignores that still 89% of people in singapore don't own cars, and no, 89% of people in sg do not "live near the city center" or "don't have kids."

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#253

Post by tduberne »

dagw wrote: post #204
mcv wrote: post #155

My parents wanted to pay for my driver's license when I turned 18, but I didn't want one. (I wanted a good electric guitar instead, though it's been stolen since.) Lived most of my life without a car, and so did my brother. Worked fine. I only got a driver's license when I got married and my wife insisted, because she didn't want to the only one driving the kids around. (She mostly insists that she drives, though.) I…

In a well-designed city, most people don't really need a car. For me a car isn't for getting around the city or getting to work (I much prefer walking/biking/taking public transport for that), but getting away from the city. To get to my favourite walking trail by the sea or the local ski slope is a 30 minute drive or 1.5+ hours by public transport. Getting to the slightly larger ski resort is a 90 minute drive or al…

This is a classical circular problem of transportation planning: when deciding whether to get a car, and if yes which car, people often use their vacation as a use case. And then, when they got that VW bus to go to the seeside once a year, using it in the city is the logical choice, because it is just lying around. Basically, getting a car is expensive, but once you have it, using it is cheaper (and often faster and more comfortable) than the other options.

So a lot of the discution about getting people "out of cars" is not about getting people to never drive, but to get them to not own a car, such that they have to make the concious decision of renting a car for the holidays, if this is the best choice, for instance. What you describe sound like this.

Obviously, this opens the question of how to improve the car rental market to make those options real options. This is where car-sharing systems and the like come in.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#254

Post by maxsilver »

anovikov wrote: post #239
maxsilver wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but even then, I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. I don't know what's different, although I have some guesses. Money, I'm sure, but there's something that's nagging me about it. I'd argue it's a combination of money and aging infrastructure. Money is the big one (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher). Infrast…

Well but this is simply not the case. Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. They also last a lot longer so used cars are much more of an option than they were 30 let alone 60 years ago.

> Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income.

This is objectively false, cars absolutely did get more expensive in the last 30 years, they cost about double what they did in 1990, even after accounting for inflation. (see https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-... as just one example of the math on that).

They may "last longer", sure, but that can itself also carry negative impacts (particularly on fuel economy, safety, and air pollution)

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#255

Post by rootusrootus »

JustARandomGuy wrote: post #3

Millennial: same feeling here. When I talk to people of my parents generation they always talk about how cars let them roam about and give them freedom. I never felt the same way, and I think a large part of that is that I grew up with the Internet; I could always AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) my friends or use ICQ. I was always connected even during an era of dialup. With the always-on functionality of modern phones,…

This is very obvious when dealing with young people today. When I was growing up, we came home from school, dropped off our bags, and then I didn't see the inside of my house until dinner time. Everything was outside, all the time. Even with the advent of the Nintendo, we still spent the vast majority of play time outside.

But then the Internet become a thing. For some of us sooner rather than later (I started earlier, as a tween, doing FidoNet and running a BBS). That shift online came with a tremendous increase in seat time in front of the computer.

So now I'd have to throw the kids out of the house and lock the door behind them, or they'll happily park in front of their computer playing games, watching YouTube, texting with friends that are literally across the street.

No wonder young people no longer see the car as freedom, they've lost the interest in even leaving their house, much less driving into the wilderness to take a hike or see the stars, etc. Sure, not all of them, but there is a very obvious pattern. And older generations aren't immune, of course, the allure of sitting on your butt in front of a computer screen appeals to all ages. But the older generations started with more habitual roaming habits.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#256

Post by vel0city »

refurb wrote: post #122
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

It's similar in Singapore which arguably, because of its size has amazing public transport. But what do a lot of people do if they can afford it? Buy a car, especially if you want to live away from the city center and have kids. They even pay the $100,000 fee for a 10 year permit to have a car, on top of 100% import tax. That's close to $175,000 just to own some tiny 3-cylinder car for 10 years.

When you make it incredibly expensive to own a car, few people own cars. Who would have guessed?

I wonder what car ownership would look like if there was no fee and taxes were much lower?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#257

Post by moffkalast »

_dain_ wrote: post #44
moffkalast wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is the part where you need to get to and from the train station to your actual destination, which could be on the very other side of town. It can be solved with shuttles or taxis, but that adds even more complexity and annoyance than just driving directly, especially with luggage.

Those cities have extensive networks of local rail, subway, trams, and buses. So "the other side of town" is easily reachable.

And you again need to figure out and get whatever local card or ticket or app they decided to use to pay for all that, because there is zero standardization, which adds even more financial overhead assuming you're only visiting once, plus figuring out the timetable and route plan so you don't end up on the completely opposite end. Lots of "Oh wait, you were supposed to take the #15 bus, but this is a #15B which doesn't go to your station because fuck you" moments.

Remember, this mess is trying to directly compete with just looking at a satnav and driving where it says with no extra charge, lost time, or mental effort.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#258

Post by Earw0rm »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

Yep.. something about setting out in to the unknown, a battered paper map as your guide, and the combination of surprise and lack of accountability (doesn't perfectly describe what I mean, but I can't find a better word) you'd get in return.

It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that required more spare time & energy than people had day to day.

When you know not only what businesses, facilities etc. you'll find in the town 50km away, but have a fair idea of what they're like (google reviews..), the world is so much a smaller place than it was even up until the mid 1990s. And with social media, you're no more or less a stranger in your own town than anywhere else.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#259

Post by mcv »

BrandonS113 wrote: post #203
imiric wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't rent bikes if you are not Dutch Huh? There's a bike rental place on practically every other corner in most Dutch cities, and most of their profit is from tourists. You only need to show some ID and leave a deposit. Dutch people usually have a cheap old bike, or use the public OV bikes, for which you do need to register and get a card, but even that is possible as a foreigner, it just takes some days to pr…

One needs iDEAL for many things in Holland, and needs to be a resident for that. My colleague tried to get a personal OV-chipkaart, https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/en/apply-for-personal-ov-chipcar... , needed for bikes, he went though the process, and got nowhere. It was 2 years ago, so may have changed. But he said it stranded on need for a local bank account. I know you can get anywhere by public transport, much better…

The accessibility of OV-kaarten is indeed not great for tourists, which is ridiculous. There's been a lot of criticism of the OV-kaart system. But most things can be paid with a simple bank card transaction. I doubt buying or renting a car would be that much easier.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#260

Post by rootusrootus »

yucky wrote: post #235
JustARandomGuy wrote: post #3

Millennial: same feeling here. When I talk to people of my parents generation they always talk about how cars let them roam about and give them freedom. I never felt the same way, and I think a large part of that is that I grew up with the Internet; I could always AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) my friends or use ICQ. I was always connected even during an era of dialup. With the always-on functionality of modern phones,…

This strikes me as sad that young people are replacing real life connections with digital, and then wondering why they're all so depressed.

> they're all so depressed

And fat, out of shape, with health problems that are normally associated with older people. I'm astounded at how many 20-somethings I've met who complain about knee and back problems.

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