Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams • Hacker News Board

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#251

Post by andrepd » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

notlukesky wrote: post #232

terminalcommand wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Building companies are close to the government everywhere. Try getting permits without access to the city council or mayor. Turkey is a major faultline (and most of the northern Mediterranean) and seems to constantly have earthquakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Turkey In the same area of the earthquakes now (the size of the UK) there was an earthquake in 115 AD that killed 260 thousand peopl…

> Try getting permits without access to the city council or mayor

It's depressing/comforting to know that my town is not unique in this regard.

I have the impression that local power is always more corrupt than central/national power. Less scrutiny and more opportunity for doing dirt without getting caught.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#252

Post by TomK32 » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead.

Absolutely true I'm guilty of binging a few youtube videos on aviation and engineering failures over the winter, as well as videos on road infrastructure (slowly, as a cyclist, I understand that motorists are not just idiots but idiots on roads built by idiots) and I'm pretty sure there are youtubers that produce content on construction failures that lead to this or that code. For example the Knickerbocker Theater was code compliant but it still failed and the codes updated afterwards, rescue operations were also a bit of a mess https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4P7qHjp3nE or the collapse of a parking deck in Canada that also showed how important nearby rescue services are when salt has eaten through your concrete and steel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLtWiJ8uVg or this building that had extra load added to the roof while the columns underneath were not built as intended https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLtWiJ8uVg

Maybe educating the future building owners with content like this will show then that there are a lot of dangers known and unknown?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#253

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #211

jeltz wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Yes, a lot of them are caused by incompetence to some extent but we should use processes where the harm of incompetence is limited and where we take quality and security seriously. Blaming it on individual incompetent developers is unhelpful when the industry allows this and encourages it since it increases the short term output of new features.

Everyone started out as an incompetent developer.

Everyone makes stupid mistakes sometimes. If you are perfect 99.9% of the time, you're still doing something wrong every quarter.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#254

Post by m0llusk » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:13 PM UTC

Back around 1982 I visited New Zealand. Traveling around Auckland it was surprising to me to encounter so many unreinforced masonry buildings. I tried several times to ask politely what was being done about this problem and each time received a stern response along the lines of "Shut up and mind your own business, damned Yankee." Then in 2011 nearly 200 people were killed, mostly by those buildings which had stood as an obvious risk for decades.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#255

Post by notch898a » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:14 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #241

notch898a wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I totally acknowledge cultural aspects associated with religion live on. Of course your family has to have a place to invite the family in anyways, which they may or may not be able to afford the code house. Corruption is another factor at play, but they can be confounding factors. This is evident when you see even SELF-BUILT homes often have to follow codes -- what is the owner supposed to be defrauding himself…

I don't think it is absurd to require self-built homes to conform to universal codes. Builders-owners are the first inhabitants, but not necessarily the only ever inhabitants. Some other person/family may be living in them 5, 10 or 20 years from now, and having documentation that the original owner didn't cut corners when building the object reduces the "lemon market asymmetry" during the purchase process that is oth…

OK so let me build the house and post the ~$10k bond to demolish the house once I'm dead. Since in my case the alternative is no new house at all it'd be back to where we started after I'm dead and in the meantime the place I'm renting opens up to someone else.

The handwaving about market asymmetry or whatever we all know is moving the goalposts from the corruption you were talking about earlier and easily bypassed anyway by posting a bond to demolish the house upon death/sale or other mechanisms like documentation of deviations or posting bond for special inspections upon transfer. In practice there's a place a few counties over from me that DOES do self-certification where they completely look the other way and all the crazy fears you have, haven't come to fruition and you can even transfer those houses unencumbered.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#256

Post by adventured » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:16 PM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #130

andoma wrote: post #25

> In nearby Erzin county, however, not a single building collapsed. The local mayor and his predecessor told local media that they did not allow any illegal construction. Both used the same phrase: “My conscience is clear.” That mayor, Ökkeş Elmasoğlu, should perhaps run for president.

The fact that this is the exception is so sad. I don’t know how our species made it so far in spite of its own nature. I can’t imagine how much pressure and intimidation this mayor suffered to refuse bribes from (probably very) well resourced and connected individuals/cartels.

> I don’t know how our species made it so far in spite of its own nature.

You're probably overestimating the representation of corruption among individuals. It's rare, not common; which is also why it upsets most everyone (if it were actually the common, it wouldn't upset so). Obviously it can also be more common in some places than others, depending on context. And it's a percentage tax - a friction - on progress, not an absolute stoppage.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#257

Post by Tor3 » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:16 PM UTC

WeylandYutani wrote: post #248

terminalcommand wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Exactly. They're not scams. It is much worse than that. Everything was legalised by Turkey's government. This is why all the building company CEOs will walk free because their lawyers can produce the paperwork that proves everything was above board. AKP is checkmate.

Also "Why did so many buildings collapse?" https://www.bbc.com/news/64568826

Quote: In Turkey [..] the government has provided periodic "construction amnesties" - effectively legal exemptions for the payment of a fee, for structures built without the required safety certificates. These have been passed since the 1960s (with the latest in 2018). [..]Up to 75,000 buildings across the affected earthquake zone in southern Turkey have been given construction amnesties[..]

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#258

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

beambot wrote: post #192

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Code overzealousness isn't the issue... it's months-long delays in permitting & rampant understaffing of city inspectors that are required to inspect every little thing causing construction to start & stop every 2-3 days.

Aw man, if only it was widely agreed that we should adequately fund government, and that properly funding, staffing, and paying for government services could result in fewer problems.

What? Democrats are socialist? Okay I guess we will keep having the same problems then.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#259

Post by c-smile » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:26 PM UTC

Building codes of course are written by blood and shall be followed.

But looking on that photo... You see bunch of vertically standing "levers" around. With their own resonance frequencies. Dynamic of their vibrations is quite complex. They may amplify effect in some places. Effect of standing wave and the like.

But that's also about building codes I believe.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#260

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Feb 13, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #173

preseinger wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any difference in outcome between those two numbers? like are you gonna do one thing if it's 0% and another thing if it's 0.001%? no.

I think for most people it isn't, but only if you tell them the truth. If you gaslight them and say they are 100% safe, then you will get a much higher percentage of people losing trust and not taking the vaccine anymore.

Which is why every vaccine you get comes with a complementary documentation packet with several pages describing the possible known and unknown complications, things you should look out for, reasons you maybe want to turn this vaccine down, talk to your doctor, and try again later.

Like, why else are you required to sit around for twenty minutes after you get it?