Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#251

Post by barry-cotter » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #14

Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.

You can’t see social class. Social class barely exists as a politically relevant group identity. None of this is about justice. It’s about distributing spoils to politically relevant groups. People don’t care because there’s no benefit to them or their political coalition.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#252

Post by BeFlatXIII » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:28 PM UTC

backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

> But making a conscious effort to make sure everyone at the company feels socially welcome and fairly treated is a worthwhile effort.

Or it would be worthwhile if it actually worked. Note the use of the subjunctive tense.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#253

Post by hedgehog » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

bigbillheck wrote: post #191

catiopatio wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s completely, totally, and absolutely incorrect. I spent decades on IRC starting in the early 90s, and this is a politically-driven contemporary re-imagination of what existed at the time. We were open to all because we ourselves didn’t fit in elsewhere.

I was never on IRC much but I spent an awful lot of time on usenet and he's a lot more correct than you are.

That was my experience as well.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#254

Post by backzerman » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #187

backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

We’ve hired people at my jobs (big tech to startups in SV) that were underqualified because of diversity measures. If we had ran them through the typical interview gauntlet with the same rubric, they wouldn’t pass. We often changed the interview format or the rubric when presented with someone who was URT pool. I’ve talked to enough managers who complain about lackluster employees and how they’re not fireable because…

That's disappointing to hear. It also seems like a mixed bag for these lackluster hires, who get a paycheck but likely have a less-than-stellar work experience and little opportunity for advancement.

Is there any effort at follow-up training? Seems like this interview strategy HAS to be paired with a long-term training strategy for taking less-qualified hires and turning them into very productive employees.

If not, do you end up hiring more people in total? Do these lackluster employees just eat up time and budget, or do they also actively occupy a desk that you need to reclaim to hire more talented replacements?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#255

Post by BeFlatXIII » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #217

moomoo11 wrote: post #176

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

I always get confused when people say they need to have people who look like them in prominent roles in order to feel welcome in a hobby/career/whatever. I'm a fan of boxing, and my favorite boxer is a black Muslim. I do some hobby-level game dev on the side, and most of my favorite devs that I look up to are Japanese. Young black men seem to disproportionately love Dragon Ball Z, with an Asian-appearing main charact…

Not sure why your comment was greyed-out when I saw it. Voting patterns are truly bizarre and disconnected from truth.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#256

Post by throwaway35934 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

I have absolutely been pressured to "reconsider" when I marked an intern in a diversity target group as a no-hire, and said intern was then switched into a different team.

EDIT 1: The more effective mechanism that my company uses is to verify at the time of hiring a candidate that you can show you at least considered diversity target candidates (in engineering, basically women and non-Indian/Asian/white).

EDIT 2: also definitely see diversity target group employees being flagged for second-look when identifying layoffs, PIPs etc.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#257

Post by rayiner » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> I'm positive that Satya and Sundar are great motivators for indian kids to look up to (as they should be).

I'm doubtful about that. At least among my cohort (first generation south asian immigrants to the east coast) there's not a strong sense of racial identity. There's strong identity in the sense of ties to religion, home countries, culture, and traditions, but not group identification or a feeling of collective destiny. I recently told my dad about being at a professional event where there were three south asians "at the table" so to speak. He was like "huh, that's interesting." He had a stronger positive reaction when I mentioned that Chris Sununu (governor of New Hampshire) went to the same high school as my brother and me. I have to think it's similar to Jewish Americans--they're not looking up to Mark Zuckerberg because he's Jewish.

I also disagree that Indian kids "should" look up to Pichai or Nadella because of their ethnicity. Insofar as there is an "us"--a definable group with distinct interests--"representation" will never advance those interests. Pichai or Nadella will run their companies how white shareholders want them to, exactly the same way as a white CEO would. They wouldn't have been selected if that wasn't the case. The "representation" doesn't advance the agenda of the group in any meaningful way.

To the contrary, "representation" is used by white people to obtain the support of minority groups without giving them anything. I see white people pressuring my daughter to look up to Kamala Harris (because Harris "looks like her"). This is just manipulation. Harris will not meaningfully advance the distinct interests of south asian people, nor is she a good model of south asian culture or values.

As to your main point--for sure people on the internet have better manners today. Is that creditable to DEI initiatives? Can we have online spaces and workplaces where nobody is made to feel excluded because of their immutable characteristics without forcing people to write diversity statements or having Robin Di Angelo types come in to lecture white people about their inherent racism?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#258

Post by balls187 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #217

moomoo11 wrote: post #176

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

I always get confused when people say they need to have people who look like them in prominent roles in order to feel welcome in a hobby/career/whatever. I'm a fan of boxing, and my favorite boxer is a black Muslim. I do some hobby-level game dev on the side, and most of my favorite devs that I look up to are Japanese. Young black men seem to disproportionately love Dragon Ball Z, with an Asian-appearing main charact…

Are you truly confused or is it that you choosen not to listen to the reasons “people” have for finding value in representation?

Does your comment mean that because your human experience is different than other people that you find it difficult to understand how others may think and feel differently than you?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#259

Post by darkwater » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

spoiler wrote: post #211

dylan604 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

My experience is different, too. I've never experienced these racist/sexists IRC communities in the past either. Sure, there'd be the occasional asshole like everywhere else online, but they'd get warned (and banned eventually). Why is your comment so passive aggressive, though? While the counter claim hasn't presented any proof, the same holds true for the original claim. You seem to be only thinking critically of t…

> My experience is different, too. I've never experienced these racist/sexists IRC communities in the past either. Sure, there'd be the occasional asshole like everywhere else online, but they'd get warned (and banned eventually).

Would you be part of the target audience, back then? Or you were part of the main group and just remember that "nobody was harassing nobody"?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#260

Post by strawpeople » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #217

moomoo11 wrote: post #176

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

I always get confused when people say they need to have people who look like them in prominent roles in order to feel welcome in a hobby/career/whatever. I'm a fan of boxing, and my favorite boxer is a black Muslim. I do some hobby-level game dev on the side, and most of my favorite devs that I look up to are Japanese. Young black men seem to disproportionately love Dragon Ball Z, with an Asian-appearing main charact…

If you are someone who has experienced personally harmful racism (e.g. a black boy getting in trouble at school for things that white boys routinely get away with), then it is helpful to see a counterexample of what is possible in society for someone who has the same potential to be targeted by discrimination.