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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

251–260 of 584 posts

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially Corbyn, though of course he couldn't "support it" outright because that would mean agreeing with Tories (and he couldn't oppose it outright without angering a lot of Labour members)

Another rewrite of history. He backed Remain.

Did he? Any support he gave was so tepid, I barely noticed.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#252

> Brexit has also institutionalised lying in British politics, Lying is institutionalized long before Brexit. That's why the British is called "Perfidious Albion". Look at how Jean-Jacques Rousseau said in 1762: "The people of England regards itself as free, but it is grossly mis- taken; it is free only during the election of members of parliament. As soon as they are elected, slavery overtakes it, and it is nothing.…

I don't normally downvote so I want to explain why I did it - I think your Rousseau quote is very specific to the historic events and discussions that it came from. He is essentially arguing that democracy is not as good as what we would now call a dictatorship of the proletariat - "The Terror" that he is implimenting in france.

It's not really useful for understanding French attitudes to the English at that time, and it isn't particularly about their honesty.

This... context blindness makes me wonder if you are an algorithm or something. It's hard to believe a human would be reading a book about that period and think "this is a good quote to show the British have always been considered untrustworthy".

There are many examples of historic British untrustworthyness. I'll pick one - the fate of Duleep Singh. I'm sure that you can come up with others. Why these?

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#253

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Proportional representation also has its problems. Look at the Netherlands, which has 17 different parties in parliament and led to it becoming increasingly difficult to form coalitions, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Dutch_cabine...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#254
I'm based in Ireland, and travel regularly to both Britain and California with work. I've always been shocked with the poverty and sense of systemic decline I witness in San Fran. Visiting London and being part of the tech industry can insulate you from just how grim things are in large parts of Britain as well though.

Not saying Ireland is some sort of utopia by any means, and we have our own enormous challenges with regards to things like housing and healthcare, but life is noticeable better here for the average citizen than it is in Britain. Which is such a turnaround from the 80's and 90's.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#255
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't a parliamentary system effectively proportional representation? Not necessarily. Imagine a country with four parties. In each constituency, they respectively get 40%, 30%, 20%, and 10% of the vote. Under FPTP, parliament is made up of all reps from the 40% party, shutting out other voters. Under PR, depending on variety you'd get results closer to the distribution of the votes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…

But I don't think that's how it works? I think parliament works proportionally? See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... It is not the case that the conservative party got all the seats.

Imagine there were 100 constituencies, and in every one party A secured 51% of the vote and party B got 49%. Under our current system, party A would have all 100 seats, and party B would have no representation at all; whereas under PR, A and B would (simpisticly speaking)split seats 51-49.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#256
post #207
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is a common trend through the west. Here in Canada the current Federal Liberals won the last two election with about 30% of the vote which when you take into account how many people even vote amounts to something like ~5 million people in a country close to 40 million. The kind of overarching policies and rhetoric coming out of government is widely disproportionate to that level of mandate.

Yup. In France Macron hold total power with less than 30% of voters and less than 30% of good opinion in polls. His "pension reform" has everyone against it, the unions, all political parties but his own, even the employers association, but it will be enforced anyway. Democracy is dead, and it even began to smell.

Curious to see what HN's opinion on mandatory voting is. We have that in Australia and the sense is that it tends to dull the extreme fringes of the party platforms since they need to broadly appeal to the mainstream.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#257
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. This is unfortunately not unique. India too has seen the rise of the right, and its democracy threatened and at a perilous stage. Many other countries have seen the rise of the right too. However, I feel this is a political pattern that can be observed historically and generationally, where the political spectrum switch between extremes of left and right…

When my side wins, democracy is healthy and vibrant. When the other side wins, it's faltering and corrupt.

Looking from outside, it honestly doesn't seem that's what's going on. Here in the Netherlands we have proportional representation, and while our democratic system does show signs of decay, it still feels way more healthier than the British one. Here we have 20 parties to choose from, which always leads to coalitions and compromises. Having to keep deciding between only two would feel incredibly constrained to me.

And I say this as someone who keeps voting, unsuccessfully, against our incumbent PM.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#258

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Democracy is remarkably robust and people fighting is not an indication that it is faltering. The UK has a long and proud history of tenuous balance between different groups that are all on the verge of doing violence to one another, the current era is remarkably peaceful and cooperative.

People are undercalling the effects of a multi-decade campaign against energy security in favour of environmentalist goals. The driver of the environment of cooperation post-WWII has been abundant cheap energy. That meant there was always a path forward where everyone was better off - which is no longer so obviously the case.

To be fair, it isn't just a policy problem. The UK is running out of fuel. But this article isn't going to the root cause of why people can't find an easy grow-the-pie solution to keep everyone working together.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#259
post #38

Ben Page, the boss of Ipsos, a global research firm, points to what he terms the “loss of the future”, common across the West but acute in Britain. In 2008, as the financial crisis struck, only 12% of Britons thought youngsters would have a worse quality of life than their parents, Mr Page notes. Now that figure is 41%. As elsewhere, people worry about immigration and feel threatened by globalisation. All this makes…

> Like lemmings off a cliff. I just want to mention that actual lemmings are not doing this. This was faked by Disney employees throwing lemmings out off a cliff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming#Misconceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Wilderness_(film)#Contro...

Meanwhile, actual lemmings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z2-vPg1_nw

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#260

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Here in Israel with proportional representation, every small party has outsized power since every one of them has enough power to vote down the current government by joining hands with the opposition. As a result, decisions that are undesirable by the majority are consistently made.

We are currently after an election but before forming a new government and as part of the coalition negotiations the upcoming government is trying to pass several laws to weaken Israel's democracy, including one that effectively strips the Supreme Court of its ability to override non-constitutional[1] laws and directives (and let's not mention the personal legislation).

I suspect then that the problem is not specifically in the voting system, and the voting system at best can be a contributing factor.

[1] - Technically Israel doesn't have a constitution and instead has "Basic Laws" that serve a similar function, let's not get into that :)

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