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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#251

Post by mindcrime »

wonnage wrote: post #245
mindcrime wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... Is it? Saying "all mean are created equal" has a lot of interpretations, of which many valid ones do not include "all men are born of equal ability in every regard." Given that some people are born to grow up to be 5'4 and weigh 100lbs and others are born to grow up to 6'7 and 320lbs, it should be clear that not everyone is "equal" at least in terms of the…

Quoted post unavailable.

Regardless of interpretation, I'm pretty sure deciding whether a kid is fit for the elite/intellectual track or the physical labor track at the tender age of 10 based on whether they can do some tests is not in the spirit of "all men are created equal"

And I would agree. But your earlier comment seemed to imply a much more absolute stance. That's what I would disagree with.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#252

Post by School-Cotton »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #221
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible this is a good thing. Though it's also possible sorting too early determines someone's life path before they are mature to understand their talents and abilities. So I don't think early sorting is superior to the American model because at least the American model can uplift late bloomers.

A famous example of this that absolutely blew my mind is Uğur Şahin. For those not familiar, he is the founder of BioNTech, the German researchers who developed Pfizer's SARS-COV2 mRNA vaccine. Uğur moved from Turkey to Germany at age 4. At the end of primary school his teacher had assigned him to 'hauptschule'. It was only because of a neighbour's intervention that he was later put through 'Gymnasium' i.e. on track…

You don't know the counterfactual, though: how many Americans' talent is wasted because they are forced to sit through watered-down school until age 18 before they can begin serious studies?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#253

Post by mirceal »

hintymad wrote: post #240
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I don't understand how these people could consistently ignore facts. Case in point, I could earn way more than Scott Aaronson or had way more social privilege than him, but you'd think I'm crazy if I claim that I can be as good at maths or quantum computing as Aaronson.

it’s not about being better than him. it’s about the theoretical possibility of being better + the virtue signaling that comes with the theoretical possibility

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#254

Post by wonnage »

tonguez wrote: post #234
wonnage wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... 2. This follows from #1, if we rule out nature then it must be nurture. Also, you must not be a parent if you'll accept "some kids are just dumb" as an excuse 3,4. Replace "oppression" with "competition". I think it might sound better to you. But the conclusion is the same. You want to prevent winners from accumulating an advantage, eliminating all others…

“ 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability” “ 1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so...” yes those slave owning people really thought their slaves were the same as them, totally dude

Yeah I heard we tried to end the slavery part somewhere along the way and have been somewhat successful, but we definitely kept the first one.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#255

Post by mirceal »

paulcole wrote: post #243
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

> Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability This is generally true. People can find extreme examples that “disprove” this but they’re generally wrong. Most things people do aren’t that hard and people have the ability to learn to do them — they either choose a different path, have fewer choices, or just don’t care. And yes, before you ask, this includes computer programming.

yes and no. the old nature vs nurture + not all people are genetically gifted and a small generic advantage can mean a huge difference in capabilities.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#256

Post by [deleted] »

wonnage wrote: post #213
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... 2. This follows from #1, if we rule out nature then it must be nurture. Also, you must not be a parent if you'll accept "some kids are just dumb" as an excuse 3,4. Replace "oppression" with "competition". I think it might sound better to you. But the conclusion is the same. You want to prevent winners from accumulating an advantage, eliminating all others…

[deleted]

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#257

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

ejb999 wrote: post #174
robotresearcher wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately? Well-trained people showing up by themselves is a huge advantage.

Yes unfortunately. The unfortunate part is we don't educate enough of our own citizens for these well paid jobs.

Right. “Unfortunately” doesn’t mean we should not continue to rely on immigration for high tech. It means it’s unfortunate we’re not providing the a similar pipeline of people domestically.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#258

Post by hintymad »

paulcole wrote: post #243
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

> Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability This is generally true. People can find extreme examples that “disprove” this but they’re generally wrong. Most things people do aren’t that hard and people have the ability to learn to do them — they either choose a different path, have fewer choices, or just don’t care. And yes, before you ask, this includes computer programming.

I don't know. Have you observed multiple kids in the same family? Same parents. Same "privilege". Same pressure. Same education down to the same teachers, tutors, books, and parent temperament. And you know what, some of the kids simply beat their siblings who can be years older, in STEM or writing or reading or leadership without even trying. Have you observed your classmates? Some are driven, ambitious, self-disciplined, had access to all the education they needed, and got perfect grades before grade 8 or whatever. Then just one day, he simply couldn't understand maths or physics or chemistry or computer science, and they simply got left behind and couldn't even study STEM in college because they couldn't pass the placement test. In the meantime, their classmates, less privileged, didn't really understand everything taught in elementary school, didn't have nor need tutoring or even challenging text books, simply became the best students at anything STEM in high school and in college, and again, without much trying.

Or, do you really think every 2-year old kid can teach their neighbor kids maths and then explained what groups are when he was 7-year old like Terence Tao did? I tried my own kids. Needless to say, I failed, miserably.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#259

Post by causi »

paulcole wrote: post #243
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

> Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability This is generally true. People can find extreme examples that “disprove” this but they’re generally wrong. Most things people do aren’t that hard and people have the ability to learn to do them — they either choose a different path, have fewer choices, or just don’t care. And yes, before you ask, this includes computer programming.

Problem being an extremely significant portion of that blank slate is written before the child even enters school, let alone makes it to middle and high school, and even during those times it is impossible for a school to make up for a horrible home life. We single out and spread stories about people who raised themselves up because it's not the norm. The vast majority of people whose parents don't talk to them as infants, don't read to them as toddlers, don't listen to them as children, and don't keep from hitting them as teenagers will radically underperform both as students and as adults. Mucking about with the education of students who haven't been sabotaged by their parents is governmental thumb-twiddling.
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