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Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

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Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#251

Genetics has a huge influence on what someone is predisposed to and what they can achieve. Certain ethnic groups and families, on average, are more likely to have certain traits and less likely to have others. But genetics doesn't matter , in that just because you have "bad" genetics doesn't mean you'll suck, whether it comes to weightlifting, intelligence, temperment, etc. Maybe you won't be in the top 0.0001%, but…

The catch here would be thinking in distributions, and from that separating individuals from said distributions.

A current topic would be representation within a given domain. Particularly since in most representation cases (high paying jobs, celebrities, top universities, etc), we're already looking at the tails of the distribution. There, small shifts can heavily affect the quantity of users in the right tail, especially for domains with stronger requirements (see your case with the runners).

Of course I won't try to discount potential cultural impact, but anyone trying to sell you a story of how it's all nature or all nurture is typically spouting bullshit.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly like that!

If you would be so kind to explain to me why I should believe you, a random person on the internet claiming to be a "scientist" who "spends a lot of time thinking" about this subject, over thousands of peer reviewed research articles and case studies stating that even if genetics is a factor in intelligence then it is so closely tied to other causal factors that it is effectively impossible to control for, then I am…

> "spends a lot of time thinking"

Why is this in quotes when it isn't a quote?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#253
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more people can learn algebra than OP implies, but as a former math educator my experience also indicates some people are genetically limited in mathematics. For reference, my specialty was working with very remedial students and only ever had a few students not make progress (~2%) but I do think that small percent was genuinely hopeless and I don't say that lightly. I have a pet theory as to why those st…

> To start, I believe that the idea of "working memory" is largely valid. Think of it as the number of distinct ideas you can hold in your head at once, sort of like trying to hold a phone number in your head when you've just heard it for the first time. Interestingly, testing myself with the Wechsler reverse-digit-span test, I found very large improvements in working memory from taking 20-minute afternoon naps and f…

> I found very large improvements in working memory from taking 20-minute afternoon naps

Sure. My ability to do anything also drops to near zero if I don't sleep enough. Yet I have not found unlimited increases in capability if sleep more and more...

> modafinil

Yeah, drugs are a quite different beast. Doping happens when individual athlete realizes they have hit the limits what their "natural" biology can do and yet still are not going to win the competition.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#254
post #62

I guess the word progressive here isn’t helpful because there’s a huge diversity of thought that gets swept up under that label. But if you take it to mean the intersectional flavor of progressive that focuses on issues of disadvantage and discrimination, then the idea of a generic lottery seems right up their alley . If the genetic lottery has winners and losers, surely that’s pure gold to progressive politics! It’s…

This is a clear misunderstanding of practically everything about progressivism. Progressivism is an evolution of liberalism which acknowledges that liberalism had failed to bring the equality it promised.

Having scientific proof of differences does nothing. It's not the starting stats that progressives see as the thing that needs to be equalized, but the opportunities. Maybe the outcomes. It depends.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#255

In these comments: people doing apologetics for a vision of the world where everyone is born with equal potential. I am a scientist, I work on these things, and I am here to tell you that: --Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited --Your personality is largely determined by genetics and is pretty much settled in to what it will always be by ~30 --If you don't learn to count right by ~4 you never will…

Cool, so malnourishment throughout life will only account for at most a 30% decline. Or is that "inherited" because it's environmental, but determined by parents?

Yes and no, and yes again. And no.

For any given trait X, the question about how much it is "inherited/genetic" or "environmental" is a commonly used shorthand, even amongst professionals, but it can be subtly misleading. All traits are 100% inherited, and all traits are 100% environmental. What do I mean by this? How is the ability to speak Russian genetic? How is the colour of your hair environmental?

Well, put it this way: is the difference between a human child brought up in a Russian family and their pet dog who has lived with them for the same time genetic or environmental? And what is the difference between a pair of identical twins, one of whom bleached their hair with peroxide–genetic or environmental?

The above are of course exaggerations, but they're just obvious examples. The correct way of phrasing the question is this: given a population A, what percentage of the variability of trait X is inherited and what percentage is environmental? Given the population of mammals, is the ability to speak Russian mainly genetic? Yes. Given a pair of identical twins, is any difference in their hair colour environmental? Also yes.

So, to the question as to how much of a decline in intelligence can be accounted to malnourishment throughout life (and how much to other environmental factors, genetics, etc.) we need to specify what population we're talking about. I'd be willing to bet that:

1- the variability in intelligence due to malnourishment in the population of middle-to-upper class children is negligible,

2- the variability in intelligence due to malnourishment in the entire child population of a developed country is detectable,

3- ...and the variability in intelligence in the due to malnourishment in the worldwide child population is significantly higher.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would be so kind to explain to me why I should believe you, a random person on the internet claiming to be a "scientist" who "spends a lot of time thinking" about this subject, over thousands of peer reviewed research articles and case studies stating that even if genetics is a factor in intelligence then it is so closely tied to other causal factors that it is effectively impossible to control for, then I am…

> "spends a lot of time thinking" Why is this in quotes when it isn't a quote?

There was another comment I had just finished reading and merged them in my head. I'll go back through and edit, sorry for any confusion

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#257
I think Charles Murray's position is misrepresented here. At least in his latest book (Facing reality), he doesn't talk about genetics (of which he is not a specialist), but about inheritable characteristics. His point is that you don't know where the cursor is between genes and early education/environment, but since you can't take children away from their parents at birth, the distinction doesn't really matter from a public policy point of view.

He doesn't say that genes (or early environment) is the only thing that matters either, and points at evolution in the IQ distribution over time, and takes the argument that if you were to put an "asian tigger mum" behind each children, you would most likely get an impact on scores.

For those interested, his debate with Coleman Hughes is interesting [1]. Coleman makes an good objection. He says that these studies on variations in IQ distributions may or may not be correct, but that we shouldn't publicise them because most people are incapable of thinking in term of distributions, and will treat an individual differently based on one of the metrics (mean, percentile, standard deviation) of whichever way you cut the population. I am conflicted on that. On one side I oppose the idea that you shouldn't look at the facts because the facts could be misused (the "chemistry is bad because Zyklon B" argument). On the other hand I have seen enough educated and smart enough people incapable of thinking in term of distribution to acknowledge that Coleman has a point.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE5QcD_12fQ

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#258
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room is that math has a giant UX problem. The notation is inconsistent and not nearly as logical as it could be.

Math notation is very consistent and it’s optimized for convenience. It’s been constantly refined over last centuries. People who complain about notation usually actually have problem with the substance, and the complaints about notation is just a coping mechanism, to deny hurtful reality that one can’t understand something hard, blaming external factors instead. Ask yourself: if notation was genuinely confusing, why…

> if notation was genuinely confusing, why would mathematicians make themselves suffer needlessly?

Because they are unable to change it. Just like with any thing evolved over a long time, like music notation, languages, even, to some extent, programming languages. Every change brings a lot of pushback, it's a monumental task to create a new one and even more so is getting any traction with it.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, some people are so stupid that they will never be able to do tasks much more complicated than e.g. sweeping the floor. You are trying to conjure a vision of the world that is comfortable to believe, but that vision does not reflect reality.

I'm not sure the assumption that the comment above you is somewhat delusional is not necessarily reasonable here. I do think its that people are interpreting "everyone" differently. To me, 'everyone' does not mean literally every person but rather the vast majority. Whether this number is 95% or 90% is going to be interpreted differently. I think nearly all of us can agree that as intelligence falls on a bell curve t…

If you take someone with an IQ of 100 and train them for a decade I think it's still very unlikely that they would become an elite chess player/musician/etc.

I see intelligence mostly as your rate of learning. That means you're competing with people who will get better faster than you. The only way to beat that is to outwork them, but there are only so many hours in the day.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#260
post #216
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math notation is very consistent and it’s optimized for convenience. It’s been constantly refined over last centuries. People who complain about notation usually actually have problem with the substance, and the complaints about notation is just a coping mechanism, to deny hurtful reality that one can’t understand something hard, blaming external factors instead. Ask yourself: if notation was genuinely confusing, why…

>Ask yourself: if notation was genuinely confusing, why would mathematicians make themselves suffer needlessly? I think its pretty clear that momentum causes a lot of nomenclature pain. You can't just redesign entire fields of understanding every couple decades. For instance, what other fields use single greek characters to label concepts in a seemingly unpredictable arrangement? Often, local maxima are found because…

> For instance, what other fields use single greek characters to label concepts in a seemingly unpredictable arrangement?

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Greek letters are typically used in opposition to Latin ones in order to distinguish what programmers can think of as “type” of concepts. For example, when doing geometry, you might want to designate angles with Greek letters, and points or line segments with Latin ones. This makes it much easier to mentally keep track of what name correspond to which object.

Yes, learning Greek letters for the first time is some amount of initial overhead (not much, as typically used ones are similar to Latin anyway, nobody starts with psi or xi). However, crucially, this overhead is paid once, and pales compared to the difficulty of learning the concepts being represented in the first place. It is never the case that replacing Greek letters with Latin makes students go “oh thank you, now I understand everything!”, instead, things are typically just as hard as before. However, replacing Latin with Greek might actually do that, by reducing the mental overhead through introduction of categories (types) of objects.

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