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I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

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Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#251

Post by tony0x02 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #191
sershe wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile "national shortage of housing" being the cause with California being the most expensive state with the most homeless? Shouldn't a national problem cause people to migrate AWAY from the expensive housing? Housing in the US (median, not SF) is one of the cheapest relative to income among the developed countries, AFAIK. Also, I can tell you from my own example that it's a chicken and egg problem. If…

Homeless people often go where the weather is tolerable. Many homeless people prefer to camp outside rather than stay in the shelter system. California is the overall best state to camp outside long-term and year-round. It then becomes a recipe for remaining homeless because the housing is so expensive. It's easy to camp out, not easy to afford rent. If you can't afford housing anywhere in the US, going someplace you…

> Many homeless people prefer to camp outside rather than stay in the shelter system

Why?

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#252

Post by j8hn »

pydry wrote: post #213
j8hn wrote: post #139

I don't have any experience with the housing issue in California, but got involved a while back trying to find pragmatic solutions in Seattle. The situation is a mess and there is an entire "homeless industrial complex" complicating matters here, rife with fraud, misspending and cronyism. Every year it seems like many millions of dollars more are spent on this issue but it keeps getting visibly worse. At first I was…

>Every year it seems like many millions of dollars more are spent on this issue but it keeps getting visibly worse. Because home prices and rents keep going up. Homelessness is an inevitable side effect of that. Funneling money on rehab rather than providing places to actually live cant fix that. It's attacking a symptom not the cause. However, attacking the cause (property prices/rents) would make a lot of very rich…

I wonder how many homeless are unseen.

My experience with those living on the streets is that substance abuse and mental health is the main symptom of them living that lifestyle. They will be the first ones to tell you if you're willing to have a conversation with them.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#253

Post by seattle_spring »

Robotbeat wrote: post #237
postalrat wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you favor blaming rent for homelessness instead of lack of jobs that pay well enough? Why can some people afford the rent while others can't? If you are after a single root cause of homelessness you will be disappointed. Unless you only care to push an agenda.

Link local minimum wage to three times median rent for a 2 bedroom apartment, then. Solve both problems! :) (EDIT: assuming you have policy to maintain full employment…)

I've never understood why working the most entry level job should afford you a midrange 2br. Why not link minimum wage to 3x rent for an entry level apartment?

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#254

Post by LurkingPenguin »

archibaldJ wrote: post #246
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a history of sending waste to other countries[1]. Obviously, homeless people are not "trash", but there is a similarity in your thinking: take something that is seen as a scourge and send it to other countries so that it's out of sight and the largest costs of dealing with it are borne by others (usually poor people). Why should countries like Indonesia, which has a per capita GDP of under $5,000 USD and n…

> ...homeless people are not "trash", but there is a similarity in your thinking... Nope. No similiarity here. We can only solve the problem when we treat people with dignity. We shouldn't alienate them. They are people just like you and me. The idea is to lower the cost while improving living standard for them. > Why should countries like Indonesia, which has a per capita GDP of under $5,000 USD and no shortage of i…

So all the homeless need is a tropical vacation?

I'm an expat myself and while not a backpacker, I have traveled extensively in SE Asia. I can honestly think of few things worse than taking people who can't support themselves in their home country and shipping them off to SE Asia where they will be thousands of miles away from their family and friends living in a society whose culture they don't understand. If you send them to SE Asian nomad hubs, they will be surrounded in many cases by cheap booze, easy access to drugs, and hordes of prostitutes and shady locals and expats.

> It can be a joint social venture set up by NGOs. We will need really smart founders to structure things in a way that will benefit the local economy there, while giving a decent life to those who were originally living on the street. A life with diginity e.g. where they do volunteer work in rehab, or as a craftman, an English teacher, a botanist, an entheogenesis research assistant, etc.

Have you really spent time in SE Asia? If you have, you'd know that Indonesia and Thailand are very protective of their labor markets and are not going to be interested in sacrificing local jobs for the benefit of homeless Americans. In Thailand for instance, under the Alien Employment Act, foreigners are basically shut out from many of the kind of jobs you are hinting at.

English teachers generally need a Bachelor's degree and clear criminal background check. TEFL certification is also sometimes needed. How many homeless Americans do you think will meet these criteria, and do you really think SE Asians want homeless Americans (some with mental illness and substance abuse issues) teaching their kids?

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#255

Post by j8hn »

Robotbeat wrote: post #238
pydry wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every year it seems like many millions of dollars more are spent on this issue but it keeps getting visibly worse. Because home prices and rents keep going up. Homelessness is an inevitable side effect of that. Funneling money on rehab rather than providing places to actually live cant fix that. It's attacking a symptom not the cause. However, attacking the cause (property prices/rents) would make a lot of very rich…

Yup, and the problem with inadequate housing affordability means pumping money into rehab just further increases the price of housing as you need to house people in rehab, after all! Get rid of height limits, parking minimums, single-family-only zoning, and make most housing projects zoned by-right without public comment required.

Seattle light rail was sold to the voters with one premise being upsizing the surrounding neighborhoods. Once construction began, upsizing became controversial and never happened in some neighborhoods because of gentrification fears.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#256

Post by chii »

garmaine wrote: post #178
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are taking that equity out via home equity loans, it doesn’t really matter until you sell. My home went up 18% this year but…so what? It’s not like we are leaving anytime soon. It’s just a paper gain that could be gone next year.

Salaries go up to match cost of living increases for the area, but your actual cost of living is locked in to a prior rate, so you profit in that way.

> your actual cost of living is locked in

your own imputed rent, if you owned your own place is not "locked in".

By living in the property, you are giving up receiving the rent that could've been generated. This means a general rental increase also affects property owners - it's just invisible and often not counted since no money changes hand.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#257

Post by iammisc »

Every state believes they are America's dumping ground.

That doesn't change the fact that the overall rate of homelessness pre covid had been declining for years in america yet increasing only on the west coast.

That alone contradicts the premise.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#258

Post by chii »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #176
issa wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sort of at a loss for understanding the misunderstanding here. Someone without equity in their home probably cannot get a loan of any sort. Access to capital, as a loan or any other form, is a huge thing. So if your home gives you access to that loan, this is important.

There is no misunderstanding. Most people don't have a use for a line of credit other than to spend it on things that don't make them any money. Everyone I know that did this used it to say, pay off a bunch of credit card debt, or build a new kitchen that will be worthless by the time they sell their house anyways.

just because you cannot think of a use for such a line of credit, doesn't mean that having the option is useless. And even if most people mis-use this line of credit, it is still an option that's not available. Availability of options is in itself valuable.

And i really dont think people are dumb and cannot think of productive uses for such a line of credit.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#259

Post by issa »

noahtallen wrote: post #194
issa wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still think you are underappreciating the difference between people who buy homes and people who rent. To buy a house, you need a certain income, a down payment etc. The people who live in low income housing have none of those things and were never potential buyers anyway.

I don’t think that’s fair. Plenty of people rent because it’s the only option they can afford right now, even at high salaries. If you don’t yet own a home, making a meaningful down payment will take years and years of savings. To afford a mortgage on a $500k house in a west coast city, you’re looking at $100k of savings. The point is that loads of people would love to own a house or upgrade their living situation, b…

I'm still not convinced of this. At least not among people who live in their houses. If you're not planning on moving, an underwater mortgage isn't a "problem" unless you lose your job, or have an other emergency. I don't think these people have a strong political view on housing prices one way or the other. People with INVESTMENT properties though...that's a different story.

Re: I believe California is the dumping ground for America's homeless problem

#260

Post by chii »

rubicon33 wrote: post #36
settrans wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California already has a 1% income tax allocated just to mental health, and has collected $7.4 billion so far just from this tax[0]. How is that working? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Mental_Health_Servi...

Our government, either through corruption or incompetence, can somehow manage to spend billions in tax payer dollars with very little to show for it. When I advocate for something like a mental health program, it assumes a government which is functional enough to actually implement it. What we currently have here in CA couldn't be further from that.

which is why further taxation or money collection in the hope of solving the problem is not going to work.
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