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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#251

Post by blcArmadillo »

CamelCaseName wrote: post #233
andrepd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 7 is due to stop being updated very soon, all the while the only alternative is to downgrade into Windows 10.j sure don't call that "basically forever".

1. Windows 7 was supported with security updates for over 10 years (2009-2020). Second to only Windows XP (13 years) 2. They offered free upgrades to Windows 10 for a long time (a year?) 3. Replacement cycles for consumer desktops/laptops are short relative to OS cycles, with some internet stats saying ~5 years on average. 4. You can still run Windows 7, you just won't get security updates. You're free to repair it o…

As an aside the free upgrade still works. You can get it from http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=616447. Just updated my grandma's computer two days ago from Windows 7.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#252

Post by cletus »

Semiapies wrote: post #236
closetohome wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The search for an ongoing revenue stream is one of the most destructive forces in the tech industry. It leads to some very customer-hostile experiences.

The problem is that not having a revenue stream is one of the most destructive forces to tech (or other) companies , and people like to keep their jobs.

You make a thing. You sell your thing. You sell it for more than it cost to make it. That's your revenue stream. But that's not enough (apparently) hence locking down repairs and other anti-end user behaviour.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#253

Post by OldManAndTheCpp »

olivermarks wrote: post #248
tapvt wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still run a 1949 Ford 8N tractor. No heroic measures needed to keep it going. Just routine maintenance.

Designed to last forever if maintained properly..

A cool thing I learned from watching AvE's channel is that bearing surfaces are meant to last forever if properly lubricated. The oil in them is meant to take all the load, and the metal surfaces should never touch. If you don't replace the oil regularly, or let it get so hot it flows out of the journal, the bearing will wear and need replacing. The design is meant to last a really long time if properly serviced and not overloaded though. (I'd love to hear from a MechE if I misunderstood, I'm just a dumb programmer who watches YouTube).

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#254

Post by PhasmaFelis »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #47
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

> This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. The same thing happened recently with the Chromebook I purchased for my significant other. She's a very light computer user, so we thought it was a perfect device. It was great, until one day she received a message saying, essential…

I wonder if we can imagine a future where most software is simply released in a secure state, or it's not humanly possible to design sufficiently-advanced software that is anything but a teetering stack of security holes just waiting to be discovered.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#255

Post by OldManAndTheCpp »

cletus wrote: post #252
Semiapies wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that not having a revenue stream is one of the most destructive forces to tech (or other) companies , and people like to keep their jobs.

You make a thing. You sell your thing. You sell it for more than it cost to make it. That's your revenue stream. But that's not enough (apparently) hence locking down repairs and other anti-end user behaviour.

Now you've shipped your thing that lasts forever. If it's a mechanical object, maybe you can get continuing revenue from spare parts, but those will bring in less than the original purchase. Worst case, someone brings up a factory copying your part design (without doing any engineering work on them, just copies them exactly), and undercuts you.

If you sell software, do you let the old stuff atrophy and become insecure? If not, you are spending salaries on maintenance without any associated revenue. As time goes on, the maintenance costs increase without bringing in another cent.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#256

Post by catalogia »

takeda wrote: post #196
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Librem phones can't come soon enough.

The issue there is that you're missing the app ecosystem. Without it, why not just use a "dumb" phone?

Most of the "app ecosystem" is pure liability. Adware, spyware, and other forms of shitware make up the majority of all the commercial app stores (Apple's, Google's, and Amazon's.)

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#257

Post by cletus »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #249
cletus wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger. Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that. You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size an…

> You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) This is one of those things which is technically true but practically a red herring. The amount of weight it adds is on the order of grams and the cost is pennies. They stopped making replaceable batteries because they want you to throw away the device and buy a new one. > and who is going to…

> as long as the specifications are documented

So this gets tricky and this is another reason why we can't have nice things. People produce things that look like an official thing, behave largely like an official thing but aren't to spec, sometimes with disastrous consequences like the man electrocuted by a shoddy charger [1].

As we've seen from the Samsung Note debacle a bad battery can destroy the device and even cause fires, which could easily result in death.

Imagine buying a phone battery on Amazon for your phone. The listing looks legit. The battery looks legit. Maybe that seller is even legit. But how do you really tell if it's not to spec? Maybe you order something that is to spec and because of inventory comingling you get something that isn't. What then?

You can say that it's not the phone manufacturer's fault and you may be right but it is likely going to result in a lawsuit the manufacturer would have to defend. Was the phone up to spec? Was there a compliance issue? The battery manufacturer and phone manufacturers will each point fingers at the other.

Replaceable parts are huge sources of potential problems so as much as it annoys me (and it does) that I can't upgrade the RAM in may Macbook I sort of get why and how we got here.

[1] https://www.ibtimes.com/man-electrocuted-death-while-using-c...

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#258

Post by catalogia »

zxcmx wrote: post #211
pgeorgi wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Let's start by requiring then that chip vendors sell and support their chips for at least that long? To stick to "10 years since introduction to market" which is a much easier requirement: 2009 was the year of AMD Phenom II (EOL 2012) and…

Regulation gets interesting too. What devices does this apply to? Does it apply to smart tvs, thermostats, printers, anything with software? (which will soon be everything). Components? Can I import a device? What vetting / certification process will be applied? Who does that? What happens when devices are manufactured by subsidiaries which get folded after 3 years? What if "updates" are provided that don't actually…

A thermostat that can't be counted on to function properly for at least several times longer than ten years shouldn't be legal to sell in the first place.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#259

Post by m463 »

closetohome wrote: post #230
cletus wrote: post #210

What many people may not realize is just how long-lived a lot of farm equipment is. There will be tractors out there still working that are 75 years old and just keep getting repaired. Obviously the manufacturers would like to sell those farmers tractors more often than that or, in the very least, generate a revenue stream from existing hardware and honestly that's what I see a lot of computing in vehicles as being:…

The search for an ongoing revenue stream is one of the most destructive forces in the tech industry. It leads to some very customer-hostile experiences.

That and control of how the product is "mis"-used and data gathering.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#260

Post by anfilt »

OldManAndTheCpp wrote: post #253
olivermarks wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Designed to last forever if maintained properly..

A cool thing I learned from watching AvE's channel is that bearing surfaces are meant to last forever if properly lubricated. The oil in them is meant to take all the load, and the metal surfaces should never touch. If you don't replace the oil regularly, or let it get so hot it flows out of the journal, the bearing will wear and need replacing. The design is meant to last a really long time if properly serviced and…

Thats pretty much right. Excluding how some types of bushings work, and other similar bearing surfaces.

Side note. There also air bearings which are also pretty awesome but require tight machining tolerances. They are used in the semiconductor industry for some things. Mainly because you dont want lubricant to dirty the enviroment, but the tighter tolerances also help ensure a spindle/shaft dont wobble as much.

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