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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

sloanreview.mit.edu

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#251

Post by jariel »

This is a great point, but it poses an inherent competitive problem, not unlike the prisoners dilemma: every company is seriously incentivised to cheat (not train) because it gives them an advantage. This is pernicious, because it almost forces other companies to do this as well.

The Silicon Valley has made an industry in a way out of 'cheating' by encouraging super long hours far beyond normal labour requirements. As a personal choice, this is fine of course ... but it's never just personal or localised because it 'forces' everyone else to go to that level 'or die'.

I wonder if it might require legislation i.e. '3 weeks training / learning'. Maybe better for the powers that be simply to put pressure on.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#252

Post by vorpalhex »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #52
ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

I think scrum, jira, backlogs and always tight deadlines condition people to never sit back and systematically learn something. Instead you feel the urge to always “produce” and feel guilty if you don’t. At least his happened to me. Lately I am making a conscious effort to work from home for a day and take a Udemy class or read a book about something where I feel i don’t have enough background in. The modern frenetic…

In theory, scrum is supposed to provide intentional non-ticket time after retro and before the next ipm/scrum meeting. That time can and should be used for learning, hacking, contributing, etc.

Reality of course differs.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#253

Post by stronglikedan »

thrav wrote: post #214
downerending wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voice of experience: Companies are incapable of thinking this way. Instead, take the 40 and simply siphon off 8-10 for your personal education. As long as you're not actually working for a different company during this time, it's all good. If company doesn't like it, move on.

Yep. Prove that you can do your job in less time, and use the slack for learning. Dip out early on days you need to speak at things. Work from home on days you know will be slow and do learning while no one is around. It’s not difficult to pull that off at a big company.

> Prove that you can do your job in less time

If you prove it, they may just expect more from you in the same amount of time.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#254

Post by ConfusedDog »

I was publicly told by my immediate supervisor to stop once reading a technical book on the job for a degree my company has paid for. Apparently that was unacceptable behavior. I quit the company after I earned that degree. My experience is that most people quit because of poor management.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#255

Post by ddek »

paracyst wrote: post #240
protonimitate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

This sounds like a good idea that I would really like to try, for my own sanity if for nothing else. For me, the issue—imagined or not—would arise in the Friday morning daily stand-up. I’m not sure it would go over well if I said that I intend to spend part of the day doing PRs (this is fine and expected) and the other part learning/researching (likely not). Oh the joys of the JIRA sweatshop. We have JIRA pulled up o…

Yep, that's a way away from ideal.

You're unlucky, there are a lot of software teams out there where the developers are pretty much autonomous. That's not to say they do absolutely whatever they want, but micromanagement is usually out of the question.

A couple of months ago I spent about half my working hours in a week watching everything that happened at .Net Conf. I didn't ask anyone, I just said I was taking training time and since I don't take much no-one cared.

If I was in your position, I'd take this as a sign that there are better places to work. Wait out your current job until it's adding value to your CV (few good projects and contributions you can talk about), then move out. You'll get more money, and you'll probably have a better idea of what to look for.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#256

Post by kqr »

habnds wrote: post #20
ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

It's because when annual reviews happen they aren't talking about the books they read they're talking about a project that they contributed to. In my experience formalizing "learning" in the work place doesn't work because it requires the performance of learning for management types rather than real learning which involves working through real new problems over an extended period of time. The real way to get employee…

This is spot on. Thank you.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#257

Post by tombert »

madsbuch wrote: post #246

What is the distinction between learning and developing? Can you develop software without learning?

With more menial jobs, you can definitely develop without learning much or at all.

I have quit a job because it felt like my day devolved into a glorified "copy-paste monkey". We had a basic template we used for clients, we just did a bit of copy-paste-modify crap to it, and then gave it back to them. I rarely if ever learned anything, but it was technically development at some level.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#258

Post by elpakal »

vorpalhex wrote: post #244
protonimitate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

The company I'm at sets aside every other Friday for all engineers to learn, contribute to open source, hack on an idea they may have (that may or may not be related to work), etc. So far the only problems I've seen is that sometimes it's hard to convince engineers to actually use the time instead of still working on tickets.

very cool. does your company maintain the IP ownership to anything made during these periods?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#259

Post by itronitron »

paracyst wrote: post #240
protonimitate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started using Friday as a "personal development" day at work. I do not write any code on Friday (unless it's a severe production level issue). Instead, I spend the mornings reviewing PRs that I wasn't included on (to keep up with whats happening, but also to learn more about how other people write and review code) and the afternoons are spent reading/researching/online classes. This has really helped me avoid bu…

This sounds like a good idea that I would really like to try, for my own sanity if for nothing else. For me, the issue—imagined or not—would arise in the Friday morning daily stand-up. I’m not sure it would go over well if I said that I intend to spend part of the day doing PRs (this is fine and expected) and the other part learning/researching (likely not). Oh the joys of the JIRA sweatshop. We have JIRA pulled up o…

You may want to describe part of your work on a task as reviewing solutions (for a given PR) and then after the standup spend some time learning about related tech to whatever PRs you have assigned.

If the product guys are any good they will care about having 'options' and will therefore welcome devs that are taking a broader look of the solution space.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#260

Post by sojournerc »

jammygit wrote: post #230

Some companies claim to own any skills you develop that would not have earned at a usual job - I don’t really want some former employer claiming I can’t work at my next job because of the time they gave me to do online courses...

If you're speaking of a non-compete agreement, I understand them to be largely unenforceable. In the US it depends on what state you're in.
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