Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#251

Post by ameshkov » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

account73466 wrote: post #230

ameshkov wrote: post #226

If I was a Chinese or a Russian engineer working for Gitlab, I'd consider quitting right now regardless of how this discussion ends. I am surprised that this initiative is not just considered by them, but basically approved by some of the senior staff: > In e-group on Monday October 15, 2019 we took the decision to enable a "job family country-of-residence block" for team members who have access to customer data. I d…

>> If I was a Chinese or a Russian engineer working for Gitlab, I'd consider quitting right now regardless of how this discussion ends. This is partially the goal of such moves and will accelerate the rise of discrimination. Thus, one should not quit despite the situation.

So you'd suggest staying and fighting against this inside the company? If they truly love the company and it deserves this, you might be right.

edit: what bothers me is that at least by some senior staff members these employees are already considered second-class citizens as otherwise this initiative wouldn't even be discussed, and I wonder how comfortable it will be to continue working with these people now.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#252

Post by thekevan » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #217

thekevan wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, am I to understand that this law says I cannot boycott doing business with businesses located in Israel? I am in the US, so can not say, "I disagree with how the Israeli government is treating Palestine and thus don't want to do business with any entity located there."?

> Wait, am I to understand that this law says I cannot boycott doing business with businesses located in Israel? No. That link the parent commenter shared is a very good overview: it basically means that your company will not receive special corporate tax consideration if your company: Enters agreements to refuse or actually refuses to do business with or in Israel or with blacklisted companies. Enters agreements to…

>your company will not receive special corporate tax consideration if your company:

>Enters agreements to refuse or actually refuses to do business with or in Israel

The link does actually include the penalties, which are far more than just losing special tax considerations. It includes hefty fines and even imprisonment under the TRA. The "just losing tax consideration" part is only under the EAR. I understand that part.

It's the fact that they say I cannot boycott Israel independently.

I'm still confused at how this can be fully Constitutional. Say I care a lot about the Palestinians and object to their treatment by the government and military of Israel. Say I make widgets wholesale for people to resell retail.

So I say, if you buy my product and resell it you make money and your government takes some of that money, as is normal. Therefore, I will not sell to any company that sells this in Israel as I do not want to my product to be used to make money for a government whose actions I condemn. I don't care if you are a Jew, a Christian, an Arab and/or even a Palestinian, if you want to sell my product in Israel and taxes which go to the Israeli government will be collected on that, I'm not selling it to you. Not just certain companies within Israel, all of them. Anyone who sells my product and thus makes money for the Israel government, nope, I'm not doing it.

That's the part I have a problem with. If I don't actively try to stop Israel from doing anything but want to take an active role in not helping them in any way, I'm breaking the law? I don't see if how I want to act independently the Arab League but what I want to do aligns with part of what they want to do, that is a problem? I should be able to not support what I see as a bad actor.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#253

Post by Quarrelsome » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:32 AM UTC

mb_72 wrote: post #242

blaesus wrote: post #225

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company b…

Curious as the way I see it it's very often China who is the 'initiator', eg internment of Muslims, stealing of territory in South China sea, debt-trap diplomacy, and so forth. Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition? The Chinese government is, IMO, massively over sen…

why do you think Trump likes to talk about China?

He's more likely to talk about camps in China than he is about the homeless in Los Angeles. One is a problem completely out of his control, another is one he could easily mitigate. You wonder why that is?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#254

Post by mieseratte » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:32 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #198

burfog wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on taking a step in the right direction, even if it is a very small step. Nobody else seems to take the threat seriously, somewhat excepting defense contractors of course. I can understand being reluctant to deal with the full extent of the problem. Somebody from China, with a family in China and subject to Chinese law, does not cease to be a security threat by moving to the USA and getting a green ca…

I never thought I'd see this level of xenophobia becoming widely acceptable in the United States. For everything educated Americans loathe about Trump, the one thing they've taken on board from him is fear of the Yellow Peril - which is probably the most dangerous aspect of his Presidency.

It’s not xenopohobia, it’s a hard problem. China actively exploits American tolerance for their own gain, and we have no good way to stem corporate espionage other than a blanket ban.

Even then, good old corruption of non-Chinese is still possible.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#255

Post by avaika » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

teknologist wrote: post #233

This is a great move by Gitlab. I'd love to see more companies going in a similar direction.

Yep. It also would be nice to provide a form where clients would be able to select race, sex, age, sexual orientation, religion and other employee parameters as they wish to build a real dream team.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#256

Post by sjy » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #153

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely. By that reasoning, a presidential candidate of Chinese descent who was a natural born American citizen but had relatives back in china would be disqualified, and that is nowhere justified by the constitution. A private company likewise shouldn’t be able to discriminate on speculative threats alone. What if they had a relative in prison, a hostile coercive environment by any measure? I accept th…

Constitutionally speaking, the President does not require a security clearance; the President ex officio has unlimited access to classified information. If there are concerns the President may be vulnerable to foreign influence, the constitutional processes to address those concerns are election and impeachment not security clearances.

Is it a constitutional principle that no secrets may be kept from the President? Or is it just that the “security clearance” system is currently based on executive orders that the President issues, rather than Congress exercising its power to “make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval forces"?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#257

Post by teknologist » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

In my opinion, GitHub should have blocked all Chinese IP addresses on the day the CCP decided to try to firewall it.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#258

Post by teknologist » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

avaika wrote: post #255

teknologist wrote: post #233

This is a great move by Gitlab. I'd love to see more companies going in a similar direction.

Yep. It also would be nice to provide a form where clients would be able to select race, sex, age, sexual orientation, religion and other employee parameters as they wish to build a real dream team.

Just a simple checkbox for "lives in a data-hoovering authoritarian regime" would be enough!

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#259

Post by mschuster91 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

m00dy wrote: post #246

mschuster91 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you in USA? No, Germany, which also faces massive problems with Chinese buy-outs and industrial spionage. > Should other countries refuse to employ USA citizens because of actions of the government - things like pulling out of Syria to enable the Turkish murder of the Kurds to continue. I would wish so, but I'm realistic enough to know no government wants to put themselves into the spotlight of Trump's Twitter…

I think Turks have the right to defend their borders

Rojava is no threat for the Turkish borders.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#260

Post by ecmascript » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

beyondcompute wrote: post #159

Well, the answer to that is simple. #boycottgitlab I am working at a European company where the amount of Russian engineers is constantly increasing (similar thing happens in many of the bigger companies nearby). And they prove to be quite ok. So since today I will speak strongly against use of Gitlab in my workplace should such a talk begin.

What? For me this is a big reason on why I want to use Gitlab.

I am european and I think you're being pretty stupid. You celebrate that the company you work for hire people in Russia rather from where you live. You seem to fail to realize that if all companies in your country would do that you would soon find yourself out of a job since there is always some place cheaper.

No one is saying russians aren't knowledgeable or good at what they do. Maybe you should read what they actually write instead of simply projecting your straw man ideas onto them.