Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency • Hacker News Board

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#251

Post by tootahe45 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #179

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

Ive had similar thoughts about paypal for a long time after they randomly shut down one of my accounts for unspecified suspicious activity and was doing everything possible to not deal with it and fix their mistake. And I know I wasn't the only one either. And yet it still survives to this day.

My favourite thing is how they wait for you to put money in and then lock your account for ID verification/adding a bank account. They know that 99% of people would just exit the site if they had to verify on registration, so they wait until you get paid, holding your money hostage so you have no choice but to verify or lose the money. Skrill is the worst, their ID verification is all automated, wonder if they deleted my $900 yet after 2 years because i just couldn't be bothered sending ID for a 5th time.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#252

Post by dajohnson89 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

JohnStrangeII wrote: post #222

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so hateful about Libra when compared with the People Bank of China's digital currency project? When that is launched, any non-chinese can hold digital yuan without a bank account. Wouldn't the west want something equivalent for geopolitical reasons?

I don't think any of this is desirable. For me, it's similar to digital voting, I have strong technical concerns with crypto currencies. The cryptography behind them or the implementations will be broken. People claim that it's different now than it used to be. Every cryptographic system of the past has been broken, but now we have the computing power to make them future proof. There are no mathematical proofs for th…

how is this different than getting a bank mainframe hacked?

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#253

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #143

ineedasername wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google are still dealing with merchant fees. So is PayPal for many transactions. A PayPal style system might work, but it is only low-cost low-friction (the main appeal for crypto) for the transactions that occur completely within it's own ecosystem. And they don't call it a currency, so they dodge some issues there. Paypal also dodges issues of "being a bank" because funds equivalent to customer balances a…

> Paypal also dodges issues of "being a bank" (...) AFAIK Paypal is a bank in the EU.

Oh, that's right. They got a banking license in one of the EU countries, which allows it to operate as such throughout the EU. If that move was necessary to operate as they do withing the EU, i.e., if they cannot simply be money stores without being a bank even if they're not using fractional reserve, then Facebook too would need to register as such.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#254

Post by Jommi » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

scaryclam wrote: post #237

tsukurimashou wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them Not to defend Facebook in any way but, isn't that already the case with a bank system automatically blocking your card for no valid reason and no way to call them over the weekend for example? (happened to me a few times)

Your card isn't your account, just an avenue to getting at the money in your account, so it's not quite the same. I can go into a bank branch, or log into online banking and still access my money. I can also go into a branch or phone my bank and get my card unblocked. In all cases where my bank has blocked my card, they've been contactable (24/7), though to be honest, they've always contacted me in less than a minute…

Why would Facebook not have the same level of support as a bank, when they launch Libra? Doesnt seem to be a strong argument.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#255

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #211

ineedasername wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google are still dealing with merchant fees. So is PayPal for many transactions. A PayPal style system might work, but it is only low-cost low-friction (the main appeal for crypto) for the transactions that occur completely within it's own ecosystem. And they don't call it a currency, so they dodge some issues there. Paypal also dodges issues of "being a bank" because funds equivalent to customer balances a…

So, what stops Facebook from trying to push Libra everywhere and then bowing out in the countries it doesn't take hold in? I doubt that many developing countries would be able to shut the door on them. It might even be a boon for those developing countries, because it could enable trade between them without some heavy fees in converting currency.

Any developing country can do the same as the US: prohibit their own banks from processing transaction to/from Libra. If the US decided not to make such a move, then users in those other countries could probably find work arounds, but it would increase the barriers of entry & probably adoption rates. And the larger adoption rates became, the easier it would be to shutdown major on-ramps & off-ramps from the currency.

As US company deliberately violating financial laws of another country might still come under tremendous scrutiny from US regulators.

Regardless, it wouldn't be perfect, and hopefully would still provide an (albeit difficult) option to avoid massively unstable local currency fluctuations. It would, however, exacerbate those instabilities which may be a net harm for all involved. I don't know though, these are systems complex enough that no single human can hold all of it, and consequences of various actions, in their head.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#256

Post by adjkant » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

pxtail wrote: post #203

adjkant wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that no one trusts Facebook and companies realize that, and no one really thinks they need Libra?

Who is this "no one"? HN commenters living within bubble? Of course "companies realize" - this idea is a game changer, it could make them partially obsolete or quite heavily decrease profits. On the other side of equation there are over 2 billions [0] of users, users who WILL GLADLY USE this cryptocurrency if/when it becomes available. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/264810/number-of-monthly...

> Who is this "no one"? HN commenters living within bubble?

The negative press cycle they got over the past year was quite public, not in a bubble.

> On the other side of equation there are over 2 billions [0] of users, users who WILL GLADLY USE this cryptocurrency if/when it becomes available.

In what world does a Facebook user = someone who wants crypto? Most people don't even know what it is, let alone trust it enough to put real money into it. Reminder, most Facebook users don't even have a payment method associated to their account because Facebook is free. That barrier alone is big. Then you have people that know crypto from last year and that it's a risky investment that doesn't make any sense and crashes. Again, what Facebook user thinks they need Libra?

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#257

Post by lawn » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #116

ineedasername wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

">If Libra ignored these rules..." This isn't like Uber silently encroaching on a city's taxi medallion laws with grey-area definitions of "taxi" and "employee". Facebook cannot do something like this without attracting scrutiny at every stage, and as we saw with Robinhood, the financial regulation systems are relatively quick to act. Especially if they "defy govs", then those government's will have every reason to c…

I don't know what Libra's plans are but couldn't Facebook make their own Paypal? What would really be the difference? I can hold a balance at Paypal. I can pay others and others can pay me. The "crypto" part seems like an implementation detail but otherwise irrelevant. Note: I'm not saying Facebook should be allowed to make their own Paypal. I'm just curious other than "Facebook scary because big" what other reason w…

> The "crypto" part seems like an implementation detail but otherwise irrelevant.

Nail on the head.

The innovation with cryptocurrencies is decentralized byzantine fault tolerance, using unknown actors. Libra is based on BFT where all parties are known, which has been a solved problem way before Bitcoin. The "crypto" part is irrelevant.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#258

Post by _hl_ » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #13

dessant wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think governments actually want Libra, what we're seeing is the role of Facebook in all of this being forcefully reshaped to better serve the needs of governments. Facebook will be compelled to give up some of the control and access over this new identity system in exchange for being allowed to operate it.

> I think governments actually want Libra Which governments? Libra doesn’t benefit any government. While Libra is a “real” cryptocurrency (distributed, any user can exchange, etc) as opposed to schemes like Beenz, it’s closer to company scrip than to Bitcoin’s model of “digital gold”. Also - despite all the white-papers and hired evangelists - Facebook would still de-facto control Libra: not directly, of course - but…

> address blacklisting

You need another human to make use of any kind of money. This human will be subject to some governments regulations, so it's entirely possible to implement some form of address blacklisting (in the form of some "due diligence" requirement when receiving money) without a technical solution. No cryptocurrency can escape government control.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#259

Post by anticensor » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #216

Mirioron wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. Imagine being unable to buy food because (an algorithm at) Visa or MasterCard decided that you violated their (community) standards. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine anything, because that's the world we already liv…

You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies. Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it. Note that for e…

> Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook

Member banks of VISA can. Remember that VISA is a limited-liability partnership founded by banks.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#260

Post by lawn » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

HenryKissinger wrote: post #228

barnabee wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would not shut down bitcoin.

If you can't convert your bitcoin into fiat, then your only option is to use your btcs to purchase goods and services directly, which would further disincentivize businesses from accepting bitcoin as a form of payment. And if you can't send fiat to an exchange, you can't increase your holdings.

You can always buy and sell them in person for cash. Like how you buy drugs.

The point is the government can severely hurt Bitcoin adoption by making it illegal, but it cannot completely shut it down.