Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency • Hacker News Board

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#181

Post by southerndrift » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:27 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #155

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

> Why would anybody use Western Union if they can send money through their Facebook for less or no fees? It's easier and more convenient too. So if I'm in the United States, and want to send some of my paycheck back to my family in Sudan so they could buy stuff, how could I do that with Libra?

I would assume that there will be a neighbor who offers a money service to the village. He will have a Libra account. No need to drive to the next big city. Your family can go to that person who they trust and he will hand out the money.

And if it is not Facebook, it will be WeChat. Then you first have to send your Libra coins to a suitable exchange that will wire it to that neighbor.

Actually, many African countries have mobile money, so you won't wire it to a WeChat exchange but to a mobile money exchange [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_MobileMoney

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#182

Post by tsukurimashou » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:27 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

>Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them

Not to defend Facebook in any way but, isn't that already the case with a bank system automatically blocking your card for no valid reason and no way to call them over the weekend for example? (happened to me a few times)

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#183

Post by asjw » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:32 AM UTC

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #178

Iv wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either Zuckberg has a geeky naive understanding of financial institutions to think this will go easily, or he is ready to use blackmail material. Libra is something I wish we fight to the death.

What is so hateful about Libra when compared with the People Bank of China's digital currency project? When that is launched, any non-chinese can hold digital yuan without a bank account. Wouldn't the west want something equivalent for geopolitical reasons?

Bank of China is not a private company it's run by the Chinese government. Facebook is not the US government.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#184

Post by toper-centage » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:32 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

PayPal has so many horror stories of locking thousands of dollars from its users for "violating terms of use" and no one seems to bat an eye. They are as big as ever.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#185

Post by randomsearch » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:33 AM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #173

Big megacorps suck at innovation. Their internally developed product innovations are typically crap. This comes as a surprise for companies like Facebook because they were once internet startups. They still see themselves as youthful and innovative. Wearing T-shirt or being casual may correlate with innovation, but there is no causality. The founder/CEO had success with one big idea that turned into success. What evi…

Agree with your general point but I think Apple and Amazon are clear examples of big corps that have continued to innovate. My hypothesis is that companies with CEOs able to stay close to the end users and keep a product focus are able to counterbalance the main problem with big companies - that their decision makers are no longer close to their customers. I think they’re exceptions though.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#186

Post by asjw » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:35 AM UTC

vinniejames wrote: post #133

travisoneill1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stop the blockchain. You just have to prevent the tokens from being exchanged for dollars which is a lot easier.

This would have the singular affect of forcing the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem into the black market, where it would thrive alive and well. Likely doing more harm than good in the process by fueling violent cartels to wreak havoc, as is still happening with the war on some drugs

I don't get the point

Cryptocurrency ecosystem is already out of the regulations and mostly a black market

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#187

Post by ben_w » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

alt_f4 wrote: post #177

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone This already exists. If your bank's AML algorithm flags certain transactions, your account will be frozen, with no explanation (they legally can't tell you why they did it, it is an offense). You will be asked to produce s…

> Given we still use banks, I'm sure "you violated our community standards" won't be the straw that broke the camel's back.

That depends entirely on how much trust there is.

Lots of people don’t trust their governments, but most do; ditto corporations. A government can be arbitrary and capricious in ways that corporations cannot, but most of us live in democracies and even those of us that don’t most live in countries that follow the rule of law.

I assume all large corporations care about rule of law, but I also assume they outspend governments on lawyers looking for legal loopholes, and corporations are not normally democracies. I don’t trust Facebook basically at all, I wouldn’t trust Google with money, the only reason I trust Apple with money is they’ve outsourced it to an actual bank, and I am only grudgingly willing to trust PayPal for occasional small transactions.

The banks themselves? Well, since the financial crisis I assume any given one will go under so I have several and distribute my money between them.

Of course, I’m unusually cautious.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#188

Post by asjw » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

alwillis wrote: post #119

colechristensen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody actually uses bitcoin in the US for anything besides investment speculation and really rare toy applications. It isn't being seen as a threat to anybody's central bank, because for all its enthusiasts and speculators, it hasn't developed into any sort of competition for the existing financial system unless you are doing something really illicit.

It's been a little over 10 years since the first bitcoins were mined and today's market cap is $147,490,754,701. Given that there are now bitcoin investment products like ETFs, some folks have a portion of their 401k's invested in bitcoin. It certainly will be competition for central banks, especially in countries where the monetary policy is kinda wacky, like Venezuela, where bitcoin is breaking usage records. Here'…

Bitcoins are valued 40 billion dollars right now, it's less that the net worth of Larry Page and less that the GDP of Myanmar, one of the poorest countries in the world.

If some folks risked their 401k on bitcoin it changes nothing.

If you own bitcoins in countries where inflation is double digit and you think they will save your family, think again: they would most probably get you killed or robbed.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#189

Post by tim333 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:43 AM UTC

aclsid wrote: post #73

vertex-four wrote: post #20

If Facebook attempts to become a money transfer service or bank without the required licensing, they will have their offices raided and their doors locked on them. This is something Governments don't tend to mess around with.

The licensing is not the issue. It is the middleman charging fees for simple transactions that they will totally skip. Building that before was hard but the blockchain solved that

As far as I can see sending money with Libra would be quite similar to sending money with say Ethereum. Transfering ETH from one wallet to another is semi anonymous and cheap, like one US cent. However converting fiat to ETH or back at the other end costs in the tens of dollars and requires things like being videoed holding your passport for KYC and AML. It tends to take a few days to be approved. I think the KYC process costs companies like $40. So it's not a cheap or quick process if you include that stuff and fairly traceable compared to cash.

Facebook may have an advantage on KYC as it already knows it's clients through their facebook activity and so may be able to get the costs lower which could be a competitive advantage there.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#190

Post by asjw » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

jcampbell1 wrote: post #108

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

Libra is meant to be the m-pesa of the world. It is funny that the US government and CIA haven’t figured out how much Libra will offer US hegemony. At some point Sandberg will explain it to the political dopes and Libra will happen. That day is not today. I don’t have time to explain this comment, but I am probably missing something in my thinking.

That's why EU is moving

US has never been weaker in the recent history, nobody helps the old lion.