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Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

wsj.com

251–260 of 336 posts

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#251

Back when I worked at NeXT we created a lights-out factory in Fremont, CA and then closed it. Steve said that we were moving it offshore to be closer to where the parts were manufactured. At the same time, I was told by some employees who worked on creating the automated factory that the real reason for moving it was completely different. They told me that the goal was to sell it to a group of Executives who could th…

You've posted so many of these stories over the years that we had to ask you to stop unless you could somehow substantiate them:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15317343

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15075098

That request is still in effect. I don't have any reason to doubt you, but the stories are so grandiose and inflammatory (and similar) that we need to apply at least a little burden of proof.

We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20305230 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#252
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been following what China does to entire population groups that threaten their stability? Name one country that is more stable for mass production than China? Its just not the leafy vision of stability you had in mind.

>Name one country that is more stable for mass production than China? India

Not really. Lack of basic infrastructure still plagues vast parts of India. But yes, India is perhaps the most interesting consumer market outside of US and China. Interesting enough to set bases there

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#253
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO The current MacBook design iteration has mostly been a disappointment. The hardware quality has materially worsened over the previous generation, with numerous reports of keyboard, screen, and speaker issues. They sacrificed far too much in order to achieve the thin form factor. The touchbar is also a terrible joke. I’ve had two current-gen MBPs through work and both of them have completely convinced me against b…

Your points are completely valid, I get your frustration. But you are comparing against previous generations of MacBooks. I would like to know your thoughts when comparing against e.g. a top tier ThinkPad running Windows or Linux.

I think this depends a lot on what kind of laptop user you are. Are you someone who is always at a desk with a mouse and keyboard, or do you want to post up in a coffee shop with just your machine and no peripherals?

The macbook pro is vastly superior to any device for the later use case because the touchpad is so far ahead of anything else. The new keyboard on the other hand is a bit frustrating when coming back from my personal surface book.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#254
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today I don't fear China. I have a ten-year tourist visa for China and will be heading to Hong Kong next week. Hong Kong was just the site of a million people protesting because they were afraid of China. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/11/why-are-t...

and winning

Not sure we have. The chief executive just ignore the 1 then 2m walk due to the support of chinese comunust regime.

China is strong and cohesive enough the world should be afraid. Raising economically but totalitarian politically justify a strong arm and nasty approach. And any people struggled would be jailed. (Last noble prize winner plus nearly all human rights lawyers.)

Be afraid.

If you don’t you are playing fire with your children’s life. Macau -> HK -> Taiwan once done it will expand to asia. Good luck to humanity.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#255
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. You wouldn't be the first person with real experience working in China making that point. From everything I've read the IP issue is way overblown. There are some high-profile cases but in general it seems to be used as a convenient cudgel for other purposes. AFAICT the real issue working in China is that it's…

The weakness Of rule of law is a common criticism raised against China, which is a huge reason foreign companies (and foreigners) have difficulties being in China.

And yet reading sites like China Law Blog, https://www.chinalawblog.com/, I don't get the impression that the rule of law is especially problematic, per se.

For example, AFAICT few people say that China doesn't take enforcement of trademark protections seriously. The procedures for redress and enforcement exist and applied fairly. But navigating the administrative state can be confusing and cause people to trip over the technicalities. Some of the stories I've read from the blog above detail situations where Chinese partners or workers used the legal system against foreigners in very surprising but arguably fair manners. Much like the U.S., if you want to protect your rights you really need to make sure to employ vigilant lawyers who can foresee potential problems.

The U.S. is large enough that there's been little pressure to address issues of regulatory and procedural uniformity relative to the rest of the world (e.g. civil law countries). China is similar in that regard. What's different is that China's systems are almost wholly unique and far more complex, whereas the legal systems for almost all Westernized nations, including Japan, have a pedigree that can be traced back to Western Europe, if not ancient Rome. China has been adopting American-style legal rules and norms for commercial law, including common law rules about case precedent. That helps further the rule of law and, more importantly, provides processes more familiar to foreigners, but it also adds yet another dimension of complexity.

To use communism as an example, again, consider that American tripartite system of government--legislative, administrative, judicial--can create substantial complexity relative to a small, autocratic state.[1] In China the Communist Party is another pillar of governance in addition to those other three, multiplying complexity. And China has a federal system much like that in America. So just because things are confusing and seemingly haphazard doesn't mean that they actually are. I mean, China has had a robust and effective administrative state for millennia. IMO much of the perception of China as chaotic and full of cheaters is self-serving. And to the extent it's correct, I think it says at least as much about the limitations the central government faces than about their lack of desire or will to do anything about it. If we don't appreciate that than we're simply going to frustrate ourselves with demands and expectations that are misinformed and unreasonable.

[1] For example, in the U.S. using a judicial judgment to induce a government agency to do or abstain from something can be challenging and expensive. We maintain especially rigid separation between the judiciary and executive for good reasons--reasons directly related to our conception and experience of rule of law--but that does not necessarily translate into efficiency or even consistency.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is true of Apple given the scale of their operations.

What special scale would that be?

If you have a point, please make it without whatever this is.

Apple scale is hundreds of millions of devices sold per year. Nobody said it was a “special” scale only for Apple.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#257

I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated, sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society. And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration camps on the daily because they just want to move to…

[flagged]

How is that story demonstrably false? Can you point to an article that demonstrates that?

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What will it take to get Apple to stand up for the rights of the oppressed in China Economically speaking, the standard of living for the average Chinese person has improved dramatically in recent decades, precisely because of foreign manufacturers locating operations there. Would you rather have the Chinese regime oppressing the people with their current level of wealth, or the same regime oppressing a people with…

> Would you rather have the Chinese regime oppressing the people with their current level of wealth, or the same regime oppressing a people with 1% of their current wealth (e.g. North Korea)? You hit the nail on the head. Every time someone brings up "human rights" as a reason to stop trading with China is just hiding behind a pretentious facade, and an obvious one at that. It's totally understandable to feel threate…

But at least there are some inside. That is human.

The fear of china ... look at those who live closest. What do you think 2m walk if it is not of fear.

Hk is one of the top economic entity in the world. We still fear that country.

Money and democracy and freedom can live side by side.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#259
post #75

Well I was not going to buy one, the price jump from the previous Pro was not something I or many expected or appreciated. I will get on my soap box again. Apple needs to be out of China, not moving more manufacturing to that country. What will it take to get Apple to stand up for the rights of the oppressed in China or are they that wrapped up in dollars they no longer see the people component? For a country which s…

I think, in the long run, deep economic engagement with China will change it for the better, not economic withdrawal. If you care about the people of China I think this is a positive (albeit, a drop in the bucket). Not that they should just embrace or accept the worst trends of China -- that wouldn't help. But engage and apply pressure with the resulting leverage. Here's a link to Apple's self-reported efforts in thi…

It has not. That is the consensus in academic circle by and large.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#260
post #125

For years I've been very happy, productive, and at times stubbornly loyal on my Linux / Lenovo setup, but it seems that so many of my colleagues have embraced Mac that it's gotten harder and harder to not be on the bandwagon. I recently hit the point of deciding maybe I should just have a Mac, but I seem to have done so after Macbook Pros have passed their peak. I don't follow consumer hardware trends much, so what d…

There were basically three things that made Macbooks very appealing to developers before: 1) Very good hardware at a not-huge markup when compared apples-to-apples (haha) with Wintel hardware. 2) Unixy OS with outstanding Just Works but it's not your fault should it fail to Just Work, as in "ugh Tom's laptop won't connect to the projector again, because he insists on running Linux." 3) Excellent pick-up-and-go, thank…

> the keyboard going from good-enough to fairly-crappy.

And don't forget the ginormous trackpad where your typing ends up in weird places because your palm or your wrist touched it unexpectedly. And forget it if you had the shift key pressed - very easy to have a large chunk of the document you're working on disappear making you wonder wtf just happened.

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