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Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

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Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#251

Post by digitaltrees »

SkyBelow wrote: post #198
digitaltrees wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education has value independent of any increase in earning potential. Society benefits as members learn a wide range of things. I believe society would be better if there were periods of time throughout ones life to go back to school and learn without worrying that it is useful, practical or will lead to higher salary. Imagine in every member of society learned about John Rawls theory of justice as fairness, or how t…

>Education has value independent of any increase in earning potential. And it can be gained independent of college and independent of educating oneself for a career as well. It is easy for someone going to college to get both a degree in something that will allow them financial freedom in the future and to learn all sorts of topics that employers would not care about.

Most types of education can be obtained outside of a formal setting, but not everyone is self motivated; some benefit from structure and accountability. Similarly, the interaction with other students and expert professors is unique and shouldn’t be ignored. Alumni networks are powerful things.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#252

Post by digitaltrees »

rayiner wrote: post #194
digitaltrees wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education has value independent of any increase in earning potential. Society benefits as members learn a wide range of things. I believe society would be better if there were periods of time throughout ones life to go back to school and learn without worrying that it is useful, practical or will lead to higher salary. Imagine in every member of society learned about John Rawls theory of justice as fairness, or how t…

Citation needed.

I learned tools in logic class that allowed me to arrive at that conclusion with no other source necessary.

Value means utility in ones life. The experience of college adds numerous examples of utility to a generic students life beyond a future job.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#253

Post by blackrock »

Retra wrote: post #111
blackrock wrote: post #43

Great.. why don't we just call ourselves the new digital serfs? Definition: 1. A person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a lord, commonly attached to the lord's land and transferred with it from one owner to another. 2. A slave.

Being free but indebted is not really as bad as being forced to work someone else's land. I owe my bank a significant sum, but I am able to find work that schedules both a repayment of that debt as well as a nice profit and accumulation of assets for myself on the side. That is not possible under slavery or serfdom. I owe my bank money, but I don't owe them my life, as they cannot require that I pay them back under s…

Most people would say.. duh..

Isn't this obvious?

I think you missed my point, and took what I wrote too literally, without doing a deeper analysis of what my intention was.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#254

Post by nitrogen »

zrail wrote: post #129
rukittenme wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and ban charters. Why? What's the difference between publicly funded versus publicly funded and operated?

The current incarnation of charter schools are a problem because they can choose who they want to admit with very loose regulations. Anyone who looks like they might be expensive or against whatever their corporate beliefs happen to be are not admitted. Public schools have to take everyone, which means they get the most expensive students (read: special needs and disabled students) while being stripped of revenue tha…

IIRC in Utah the public schools still receive funding for charter school students.

In either case, why should "easy" students be held back to the level of the "expensive" ones when instead they could go to a tech- or arts-focused charter school and contribute far more back to society?

Leveling the playing field would mean that no matter where you happen live your kids have access to well funded high quality primary education.

This seems...highly unlikely. Instead you will see everything reduced to the lowest common denominator, metal detectors at the doors, prison schools.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#255

Post by shinryuu »

zrail wrote: post #112
llamataboot wrote: post #101

Let's scale this up huge, let everyone take part, and have all of society invest in education and reap the rewards. We can call it "public education" and even capture the public externalities of having a well-educated population!

I agree with you. ISA proponents make two arguments that sort of resonate with me, though. First, incentive alignment is closer with a private structure. This is weak to me because there’s no reason why incentives can’t be aligned in a similar way with, say, an additional tax on students that looks similar to an ISA (big standard deduction, time limited, with a total cap on return). Second, and more reasonable to me,…

Would you invest in an ISA for a person that is intending to become a teacher?

Arguably a very important job with high impact, sadly it’s not well paid.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#256

Post by TeMPOraL »

mamon wrote: post #246
TeMPOraL wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't it? I'm all for public education, but at least in Poland, it seems that almost any half-decent job expects you to have education past high-school level.

Poland is a pathological case, because where communism fell we inherited one thing from it: obligatory two-year service in the army for all men of age 19 (except those with health issues, obviously). And one of the only few reliable ways to avoid it was to go to university. The result was that literaly thousands of bullshit private universities were created not to educate you, but to help you avoid military. This als…

Hadn't thought of that, thanks.

I was born and lived in an "university town", and I remember military recruiters in my town were absolutely expecting that everyone's going to university, and they defaulted to giving people the status of "not suitable for service during peace time" for any reason whatsoever. I heard that in smaller towns, on the other hand, it was much more difficult to avoid getting pushed into service.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#257

Post by Shish2k »

jedmeyers wrote: post #140
Shish2k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Taken by force" is a strange (very American?) way to put it. As a European, I'm happy to pay taxes because it's a convenient and efficient way to get money out of my bank account and into the hands of people who need it more than me; I'm helping my fellow countrymen with literally zero effort on my part, which makes my country a better place for me to live in. If we cancelled taxes and required people to make indivi…

> As a European, I'm happy to pay taxes because Because you will go to jail if you won't. > taxes is a convenient and efficient way to get money out of my bank account and into the hands of people who need it more than me If this is something other than a very elaborate satire, I would be very surprised. > literally zero effort on my part Calling at least a third of your earnings "literally zero effort" is a bit disi…

> Because you will go to jail if you won't.

Firstly, please don't put words into other people's mouths, it is very disingenuous.

As to the actual point - I'll also go to jail if I murder someone. But I wouldn't say "the government is using force to stop me from murdering people", "the reason to avoid murdering people is because you will go to jail if you do" - I'm happy to go around not-murdering people of my own free will, because I believe that society is a better place when we don't murder each other.

> Calling at least a third of your earnings "literally zero effort" is a bit disingenuous.

The GOAL is to spend a third of my money, so I'm not counting that as effort - taxes take a third of my earnings in between my employer and my bank account, so by the time my monthly pay reaches my bank account, it has all been taken care of.

Compare to the charity approach, where I need to research, make decisions, do bank transfers, keep up-to-date with the changing needs of a changing society... If I want to do a not-half-assed job of it, then I'm going to be spending so much time on it that it cancels out the benefit. A few people organising national spending at scale, even if they are only barely competent, is more efficient than everybody doing it individually.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#258

Post by SkyBelow »

michaelchisari wrote: post #181
SkyBelow wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And watch the value of the college degree follow the trend of a high school diploma! If we offered free college, how long before we start dropping the standards to earn a degree (for the same reasons we did so with high school diplomas) and have students waste even more of their lives in extremely sub par education environments?

Why do you think this hasn't happened in Europe?

Due to significant political and social differences. For example, why has the value of a high school diploma decreased more in the US than in Europe? Why does the US have more of a problem with for-profit colleges? Why does the US have such a rapidly rising cost of college (regardless if the cost is paid by students or by the state)?

If I had to give a single root cause, it would be how we vote (the US system leads to a far stronger polarized two party system than Europe has).

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#259

Post by Retra »

blackrock wrote: post #253
Retra wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being free but indebted is not really as bad as being forced to work someone else's land. I owe my bank a significant sum, but I am able to find work that schedules both a repayment of that debt as well as a nice profit and accumulation of assets for myself on the side. That is not possible under slavery or serfdom. I owe my bank money, but I don't owe them my life, as they cannot require that I pay them back under s…

Most people would say.. duh.. Isn't this obvious? I think you missed my point, and took what I wrote too literally, without doing a deeper analysis of what my intention was.

Maybe you need to communicate better instead.

Re: Income-sharing agreements let students trade future earnings for investment

#260

Post by DoubleCribble »

rhizome wrote: post #218
DoubleCribble wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or to offer programs and incentives that the unions won't agree to such as: longer academic year, longer school day, merit pay, on-call duty, at-home visits, non-traditional facility, non-traditional pedagogy, poor performance termination, etc...

If you looked into it I think you'd find that charter providers do not support having a new separate union for teachers that provides all of these "programs and incentives."

Having worked at charter schools... I can tell you that each state runs their charter program a little differently, but generally teachers at charter schools are not union represented. Each school charter is issued independently of any others and the school design can vary dramatically from one charter to the next, which is actually the point. Some charter schools have long days. Some go year round. Some focus on at-risk youth. Some focus on alternative pedagogy... etc, etc.
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