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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#251

Post by saxonww »

pixl97 wrote: post #179
dragonwriter wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright I dunno, having an owned-outright used beater seemed normal among my peer group when I was in/just out of college; having newer, better (relative to contemporaries) vehicles with financing is more common now that we're very well into careers. You can get a student loan with…

Emissions testing makes owning a beater risky.

I was wondering about how prevalent this is - I've never had a car emissions-tested - and it looks like 31 states + DC have emissions testing in at least some part of the state [0]. Just glancing over this list, it looks like several states only test in metro areas, or otherwise have exceptions; even California has counties which do not test for emissions.

Specifically, it looks like several states exempt from testing cars from the mid 90s and older. Lots of those still on the road.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#252

Post by P_I_Staker »

andreilys wrote: post #48

Anytime a criticism of China's social credit score is brought up, there's always a "yeah but US credit score", yet I still don't understand how the two are even in the same ballpark. The social credit score in China is far more invasive and penalizes you for associating yourself with individuals who have low scores. To compare the two is disingenuous and reaks of whataboutism

I think it's fair to look inward at similar issues in our society. No it's not the same, but social trust systems and Scarlett letters are big in the USA. They can be very hard to recover from, their pervasiveness, and impact have only grown. You do not want to be on the list of undesirables. Not in the same ballpark though.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#253

Post by jpatokal »

wjmao88 wrote: post #248
alanwong wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no nationwide social credit score system, and there's certainly no large-scale effort to score people based on their political and religious activity as part of China's social credit system. For more informed and nuanced understanding of what China's "social credit" is, I invite you to read Inkstone's earlier story: https://www.inkstonenews.com/society/chinas-social-credit-sy... And a podcast featuring a sch…

The Chinese government advertises that system as one based on all kinds of activity. Political/religious are just examples since those are usually the focal points in matters like these. The system is claimed to be backed by big data, and sure you can say there is no numerical score but come on.

Again, there is no one "system". The system discussed here, 失信人名单, has nothing to do with social networks, it's operated by the courts.

The video discussed below goes into this in detail, discussing what does exist, what experiments there are, and where the researcher thinks China is heading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#254

Post by ericd »

yepguy wrote: post #225
Frondo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this in a trollish way, but can you show me a "rights" molecule? Or explain what it would mean for rights to exist outside of a society?

Legal rights are things that society decides you're entitled to. Natural rights are basically theological in origin. Violating them transgresses the natural law regardless of what society decides (or even whether society exists, I guess). It seems you're only considering legal rights, possibly because natural rights are difficult to justify from a secular perspective.

The secular version of those "natural rights" is probably that they're ideas that are baked into most peoples' sense of morality by evolution.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#255

Post by shadowbannedtoo »

wjmao88 wrote: post #239
frotak wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe You mean like the summary judgments that can be leveled against debtors in the US by debt collection agencies... And which...ding your credit score. Which makes it harder to get credit...secure a loan...(sometimes) get housing...(sometimes) get a job Versus...institutional segregation and denial of services by the government. Definitely not even in the sa…

No, I mean like how in the US the creditor can get the court to let them take your property (except certain exempt things like your primary residence) and garnish your wages.

There's only a few states that a primary residence is safe. Texas being one.

Where I live, in CA, they can take pretty much everything.

(Downvote me, or upvote please. Still not sure if Dong is mad at my ip.)

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#256

Post by P_I_Staker »

gamblor956 wrote: post #71
moosey wrote: post #34

> In order for him to clear his debts, Kong argues, he needs to be able to succeed at his new business – but that is hard to do if prospective partners and customers shun him because of his official status as a “deadbeat.” This is awful. Totally admit it, they shouldn't do it, etc. About the same as being a released felon in the United States. We also allow financial information to be pulled for background checks in…

Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. In the US, the credit rating system is a creature of, and controlled by, the market. The US imposes very weak regulation on the credit ratings companies for individuals, and almost none at all on the credit ratings companies for businesses.

You say that, but that makes little difference to the person that can't get a job, rent an apartment, or drive. Background checks are ubiquitous in the USA. This is relatively new, to the point where a recently departed colleague was shocked. He hadn't changed jobs for 15 years... That's not a crazy long time.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#257

Post by saxonww »

btrettel wrote: post #216
maratd wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. You spent most of it lecturing people who use cars. I explained to you why you were wrong to do so.

Can you explain which parts you believe are lecturing drivers? My post was meant to offer my perspective as a cyclist: driving is more expensive than many appreciate. I wasn't arguing that it was unnecessary; quite the opposite. I don't know what you mean by "Please don't ruin people's lives with your ideas" if you were not referring to taking away someone's license because of debt. As I stated, I don't believe someo…

Just some perspective. I know this is not what you wrote, and probably not what you meant, but what I was thinking when reading your comment was "Car owners are extravagant. I spend a lot on my bike and still spend so much less money than them. Maybe if we suspended licenses some would get a clue."

I'm probably not alone in reading it that way, and I'd say many of us would be offended.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#258

Post by shadowbannedtoo »

nradov wrote: post #208
headcanon wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once sitting in a courtroom for something unrelated and saw a 19 year old kid go to jail for 3 months for not paying child support. Not sure how he's going to pay it back in there, but if all you have is a hammer...

Was he really sent to jail for not paying child support, or was it actually for contempt of court? People generally can't be jailed for debt. But if the subject of a child support order has money and refuses to may, or refuses to take reasonable steps to earn some income, then sometimes the judge has to administer an object lesson on the importance of fulfilling one's obligations. Judges usually don't take that step…

It needs to stop.

There are guys committing suicide over Child Support payments.

The way they figure Child Support payments is crazy. Catch a judge on a bad day, and you just might end in jail.

I never thought America would turn into such a mess.

Look up what Dave Foley (actor/comedian) has been through.

If you're young, and slightly good looking, or have something they might want; get a vasectomy.

I get hammered for this next statement, but why aren't guys allowed a say over whether a female has an abortion?

Yes-----give it to me.

I just think in some cases, like one night stands, a guy should have some say. If shouldn't have to be a mistake you have to carry forever, especially if you don't have a particularly bright employment future.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#259

Post by wwweston »

saltyhitler wrote: post #223
braythwayt wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is that incarceration just doesn’t work to deter crime or discourage recidivism. But America has the largest prison population in the world, and IIRC, the largest proportion of its own citizens in prison. In a country that values punishment over any empirical improved outcomes, I wouldn’t hold my breath for people to care that taking a driver’s license away for unpaid support will end up hurting the chil…

Call me a radical but I don't understand why we put people in jail and just leave them there to rot. Empathy, it seems is our deterrent. I for one am a proponent for the death sentence or medical human testing as an alternative. We would of course make sure to do this to inmates who are incapable of changing or adapting behavior to conform, and also only to those who we are 100% committed crimes. We can give them all…

I didn't really need someone to come along and serve as an example of not only some of the forms of thinking I talked about above but also as "criminal as sub-human other (not decent folks like me and mine)", but I guess it's a convenient underscoring of the idea that some people approach society very, very differently.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#260

Post by wwweston »

lisper wrote: post #163
wwweston wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's if you're oriented on policy goals like getting the debt where it's owed by providing consequences that aren't crippling and keeping the individual who owes it in the best position to actually repay. There are people who think in very different terms, where the primary goal is protecting a moral norm they have in mind, and the focus (possibly even "obsession") is going to be doing that by exacting a punishment…

Yes, some people choose to cut off their nose to spite their face. I'm not one of those people. I think people who are willing to make life worse for everyone in service of some moral ideology are idiots, and they make me question the wisdom of democracy. But that's just me.

My values and yours probably overlap -- I'd agree that whatever penalties you might hand out to someone not making child support, taking away a DL is counterproductive.

But I think it's probably a values/temperament issue, which isn't necessarily an intelligence issue, and might need different solutions.

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