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Japan starts space elevator experiments

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Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is arguably more doable than cables. I've been told that it's completely possible to build steel structures several miles tall (and the main reason we don't is b/c elevators become a problem).

We can build massive steel towers (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000 would be 4km tall), but they would still be nowhere near space (one common definition of reaching space is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line which is at 100km). A space elevator would reach at least 36,000km to hit geostationary orbit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit ). Most designs are even longer,…

A friend of mine who studies engineering told me that masonry has infinite compressive strength meaning, in theory, it's possible to build monumental structures out of stone.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#252

I'm curious about space elevator phenomena related to lateral ∆V. At Earth's equator (zero altitude - i.e., on the ground), an object moves spinward at about 0.46 km/sec. In geosynchronous orbit, an object has to move at about 3.07 km/sec. A space elevator car ascending from stationary on the equator to a terminal at geo altitude would require a tangential (lateral) ∆V of 2.61 km/sec. This is in addition to the energ…

Wouldn’t payloads travelling up the space elevator and departing for the rest of the solar system and beyond ultimately deprive the earth of angular momentum and send it hurtling towards the Sun?

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#253
post #30

For those looking for a popular culture examination of space elevators--albeit from a number of decades back--check out Arthur C. Clarke's The Fountains of Paradise. It also deals with some of the engineering issues, though again it's quite old.

Also the Mars Trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson. Honestly that's my favorite Sci-Fi novel series of all time. Just give Red Mars a try and I prosome you won't be able to put it down.

I enjoyed Red Mars. At some point I stopped with the rest of the series. Should pick it up again from the beginning.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#254
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can build massive steel towers (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000 would be 4km tall), but they would still be nowhere near space (one common definition of reaching space is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line which is at 100km). A space elevator would reach at least 36,000km to hit geostationary orbit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit ). Most designs are even longer,…

A friend of mine who studies engineering told me that masonry has infinite compressive strength meaning, in theory, it's possible to build monumental structures out of stone.

The base needs to be large enough to support the weight, so you get less of a tower and more of a mound (like the great pyramids).

We can get to about 9km using stone by climbing Mount Everest.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#256

I'm curious about space elevator phenomena related to lateral ∆V. At Earth's equator (zero altitude - i.e., on the ground), an object moves spinward at about 0.46 km/sec. In geosynchronous orbit, an object has to move at about 3.07 km/sec. A space elevator car ascending from stationary on the equator to a terminal at geo altitude would require a tangential (lateral) ∆V of 2.61 km/sec. This is in addition to the energ…

Wouldn’t payloads travelling up the space elevator and departing for the rest of the solar system and beyond ultimately deprive the earth of angular momentum and send it hurtling towards the Sun?

Not hurtling toward the sun, but payloads traveling up the space elevator would slow the Earth's rotation (the 24 hour daily rotation about the Earth's axis) in the same way an ice skater spins slower when they spread their arms.

When the payload detaches from the elevator, the angular momentum of the Earth about the sun does decrease (some of the AM goes with the payload) but the mass of the Earth also decreases, and the angular velocity of the Earth about the Sun doesn't change.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#257
post #234

I'm curious about space elevator phenomena related to lateral ∆V. At Earth's equator (zero altitude - i.e., on the ground), an object moves spinward at about 0.46 km/sec. In geosynchronous orbit, an object has to move at about 3.07 km/sec. A space elevator car ascending from stationary on the equator to a terminal at geo altitude would require a tangential (lateral) ∆V of 2.61 km/sec. This is in addition to the energ…

I’m not sure but I think since angular momentum is conserved, and angular velocity remains constant at all distances to Earth’s center here, then there will not be any lateral forces due to Earth’s rotation about its own axis.

While total angular momentum is certainly conserved in any rotationally invariant system (read: Earth + space elevator + objects traveling upwards + atmosphere), the situation only for an object traveling to space in the elevator is different:

Angular momentum is given by

L = I * ω

where I is the moment of inertia and ω is the angular velocity. Let's assume that we put the internet (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg) into the elevator and ship it off to space. Let's also say that the internet has a mass m and is of negligible diameter compared to Earth's radius. Clearly, its angular velocity ω will stay constant, assuming that the space elevator was built perfectly straight and perpendicular to Earth. However, the internet's moment of inertia I = m r^2 will not stay the same but increase quadratically with its radial position r and its angular moment will thus have to increase, as well. If you take the initial radius to be Earth's radius (~6,300km) and the final radius to be the geostationary orbit (~36,000km), the quadratic dependence will give you an enormous difference in angular momentum which will have to be accounted for by some torque that we apply to the internet.

It doesn't matter where this torque comes from--for instance we could imagine the internet to have some kind of jet propulsion engine, where the emitted gas's angular momentum would exactly match the internet's change in angular momentum, so that total angular momentum is conserved.

Moreover, it could actually be a small torque, provided that we move the internet at a small velocity in the perpendicular direction. (Recall that the change in angular momentum is given by the integral of the torque over time, so the smaller we want the torque to be, the slower we have to move the internet and the longer it will take the internet to reach its final position.)

Now what happens if we don't provide said torque? Recall that I assumed earlier that the angular velocity ω of Earth and the elevator (and thus the internet) be constant. If we don't provide the mentioned torque, moving the internet upward will increase the moment of inertia of the system Earth + space elevator + internet due to more mass being located farther away from the axis of rotation. By conservation of angular momentum L = I ω, the entire system's angular velocity then has to decrease, similar to a figure skater stretching out her arms while rotating in order to slow down. All this assumes, however, that the space elevator's cable is completely rigid in the lateral direction and doesn't move under the effective torque it will feel as the internet moves upward. In practice, however, this will not be the case unless further measures are taken which counter the effective torque on the cable and keep the cable perfectly perpendicular to Earth. (Only then Earth's rotation will actually slow down under the backreaction.) This seems somewhat difficult to achieve, though, and I think the better way would indeed be to equip the internet with a jet propulsion engine which provides the necessary angular momentum.

[EDIT] Made the part about backreaction on Earth and stability of the space elevator a bit clearer.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just wait 6-7 years and Moore's law should take care of it.

Okay, that's a joke people. There's no moore's law for carbon nanotube extension (that I know of). There is an analog of electric battery price reduction over time, about 15-30% per year. Here's a graph of it - https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost... .

Of course whenever we see a little bit of a pattern, we use a little bit of our ability with this language called math, and declare a law. Calling it a short-term pattern that may or may not continue into the future wouldn't help us feel smarter than the other people in the room.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the Mars Trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson. Honestly that's my favorite Sci-Fi novel series of all time. Just give Red Mars a try and I prosome you won't be able to put it down.

Gave it to my father after reading it. He thought it was too slow and didn't have enough of a narrative arc, and he opted not to finish reading. I loved the trilogy, though.

my Dad totally got into it, we read pretty much everything KSR wrote... :)

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but isn’t that because aviation is an extremely highly regulated industry?

Those regulations are there for a reason. Safety is important. You don't want your space elevator climbers to fall down. A ripped cable would also be a pretty expensive accident.

Imagine untangling it.
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