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Japan starts space elevator experiments

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Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#231

Given enough investment, Stirling engines could beat internal combustion for many applications due to a theoretical efficiency advantage. However, economies of scale and many decades of R&D give internal combustion such a huge advantage, that this probably will never happen. At what point does the 20 year amortized cost of a system involving a space fountain or launch loop acting as the 1st stage of a vastly simplifi…

ICEs gave us another boost in civilization, expanded the scale of our economies, which eventually led to enough R&D in electric engines that the latter are slowly but surely replacing ICEs now.

Maybe the same thing will happen here? The system you've described could open the Solar System for us, and time + advancements in in-space manufacturing could eventually lead to people building space elevators as an alternative.

(Also, Earth is not a good place to get the experience in building space elevators. The Moon is much better, and probably Mars would be a good candidate later on.)

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Music? The first four days will be safety announcements. The last four will be debates as to who is responsable for cleaning up all the vomit. A week of near-zero-g in a room with 30 people will not be fun.

Is humor against HN rules? I regularly see such posts being downvoted and it doesn't make sense to me.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17482490

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, for humans, that lives within same realm that warp drives occupy in science fiction.

No, we don't even know if warp drives are allowed by the laws of physics. We have a pretty good idea how to do hibernation: Saturate the tissue with some cryoprotectant and freeze it very quickly. The problem is that we don't have a cryoprotectant that is sufficiently non-toxic and we can't freeze anything as big as a human quickly enough.

Of course we know. Bend space and don't travel faster than light. We JUST need exotic matter of sufficient energy density to carry around.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#234

I'm curious about space elevator phenomena related to lateral ∆V. At Earth's equator (zero altitude - i.e., on the ground), an object moves spinward at about 0.46 km/sec. In geosynchronous orbit, an object has to move at about 3.07 km/sec. A space elevator car ascending from stationary on the equator to a terminal at geo altitude would require a tangential (lateral) ∆V of 2.61 km/sec. This is in addition to the energ…

I’m not sure but I think since angular momentum is conserved, and angular velocity remains constant at all distances to Earth’s center here, then there will not be any lateral forces due to Earth’s rotation about its own axis.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about at the poles? Seems like that would negate the lateral problems, but maybe I'm just introducing a twisting one instead...?

Then you have an enormously large tower held up by nothing but its own strength instead of being naturally pulled into space. Also takes additional delta-v to get satteliges into common orbits post release.

This is arguably more doable than cables. I've been told that it's completely possible to build steel structures several miles tall (and the main reason we don't is b/c elevators become a problem).

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article says they are going to use a steel cable.

Where did you see that? I see this in the article: "Carbon nanotube is the most likely material to be used for the cables." A steel cable would have far too low a strength to weight ratio to work in a space elevator.

The first paragraph in the article says “…aim to launch two small (10 sq cm) satellites connected by a 10m steel cable from the International Space Station.”

The part you quoted refers to the material that might be used for a 96,000 kilometer cable.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#237
The Giant Space Wheel (of Seveneves) is so much more attractive than space elevator. That is a large mass on geostationary orbit having smaller pods rotating at the end of ropes. Those pods can be lowered to atmosphere and synchronized with earth rotation. Elevator pod comes down and can stay down maybe couple of hours and then jerked back to heavens. All energy comes from the sun - collected at the center station. Safe because pods can be quickly reeled back to space and stay out of atmosphere until conditions are optimal.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#238

i remember reading here on HN someone explaining why space elevators are not possible. I can't recall why, but he/she had very convincing arguments. Anyone here remember that thread and can link it back here? Thanks

"That [rocketry pioneer] Professor Goddard, with his 'chair' in Clark College and the countenancing of the Smithsonian Institution, does not know the relation of action to reaction, and of the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react -- to say that would be absurd. Of course he only seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools."

That's a colorful quote from a NYT editorial in the 1920s arguing that getting rockets into space would not only be impossible, but obviously so. When Musk announced his intentions to autonomously land and rapidly reuse rockets it was mostly dismissed. Certainly companies, full of world class engineers, that had been launching rockets since before he was born probably knew a bit more about what is or not possible than some programmer with an undergrad in physics and negligible real life aerospace experience, right? Then it became, 'We've looked into it already, of course. It's perhaps theoretically possible, but it's a complete waste of money and in way economical.' Then it became, 'Shit we're a decade behind technologically!'

There are a practically infinite number of ways for why any given nontrivial thing might not be possible, and quite a bit fewer ways that it can be possible. So it's generally quite easy to formulate compelling and intelligent arguments against the viability of something (not that my little paraphrasings above were intended to be intelligent). But these arguments are not necessarily as meaningful, or productive, as they might seem. Think of how much of our technology today would have seemed impossible, or extreme long-term future tech, not that long ago -- even to those most qualified to make such judgement. This of course does not mean anything is possible, but it does mean we'd likely be a much more backwards civilization if not for the headstrong visionaries among us doing what conventional knowledge told us ought not be able to be done.

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you have an enormously large tower held up by nothing but its own strength instead of being naturally pulled into space. Also takes additional delta-v to get satteliges into common orbits post release.

This is arguably more doable than cables. I've been told that it's completely possible to build steel structures several miles tall (and the main reason we don't is b/c elevators become a problem).

We can build massive steel towers (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000 would be 4km tall), but they would still be nowhere near space (one common definition of reaching space is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line which is at 100km).

A space elevator would reach at least 36,000km to hit geostationary orbit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit ). Most designs are even longer, to provide a counterweight.

No known material could support a tower that tall (towers need compressive strength; elevators need tensile strength). It would need to rely on 'active support' or 'dynamic structures', like a space fountain ( http://www.orbitalvector.com/Orbital%20Travel/Space%20Founta... )

Re: Japan starts space elevator experiments

#240
post #229

It's unclear to me if this is real or the continuation of a publicity stunt from Obayashi (who has been getting press about their plans to build a space elevator for years). I'm as excited about the theoretical concept of a space elevator as anyone. But the problem remains that no one can produce a cable even close to strong enough. This article has a good description of the material science problem: http://www.space…

I agree on the publicity stunt feeling. Space elevators are thought-provoking stuff of science fiction. It would be fantastic if we could build them. Most I've read on the subject (this article included) are very thin on details, or point out the great scientific hurdles and breakthroughs that still need to be overcome / made. This article made me think of the publicity stunt some years ago to build a mountain of 3,5…

There is a very good youtube channel by Isaac Arthur where they look at different options.

There is better stuff like the orbital ring which looks very expensive but actually feasible with current technology.

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