Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There? • Hacker News Board

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#251

Post by mayniac » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

flaie wrote: post #186

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction, there are enough devs but the salaries are too low, so they go elsewhere like I did. I am not going to work 40+ hours a week or more to make 2500 euros and pay 1000 euros of rent in Paris. Whats the point? Also, Paris is a crime-ridden city that is way overpriced.

Exactly, there's a lot of cool stuff going on in Paris, but seriously it's underpaid for the price you have to pay to live there. From where I live I could work in Paris with the same commute time than I do by working in Luxembourg, but I get a better paycheck. Renting a 2 bedroom costs 700€ a month where I live, in Paris it would cost 2 to 3 times this. I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", thi…

>I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London

Not by much [1][2], and rent is worse in London[3]. I think income tax is fairly comparable.

From personal experience the same salary goes further in Paris and quality of life is better than in London, although I never officially worked in Paris so can't comment too much. The nightlife is certainly better. Also Switzerland is crazy expensive so even if you're earning more it won't matter, pretty much everything you buy day to day is about 2x as expensive compared to anywhere else.

[1] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-enginee... [2] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#252

Post by Ragnarork » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #64

Rjevski wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No change - if anything, it's even worse, as the education requirement now means everyone has a degree (even though they might not have the passion nor the actual skill for it), and since the requirement no longer works as a filter for good candidates (I'd argue it never really worked, but now it's even worse) they are now requiring education and experience (for the same pay an intern would get in the UK). Even assum…

What does the start-up scene in France look like in comparison, in regards to requiring the right university background? Do investors react similarly or do they care less about that?

I think it really depends on which start-up (and investors) you look at. I work at one that has two developers with no university degrees, and it wasn't an issue recruiting them, and I don't even think investors know about this. Implementation details, sort of.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#253

Post by enriquto » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #233

enriquto wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is simply not enough supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. This argument is ridiculous, the problem is that you are not willing to pay enough. (I am working in Paris)

I'm curious: What is "enough" for someone with eq of an MSc in CS and a couple of years work experience with big data and distributed systems? I realize Glassdoor and similar sites aren't the best source of information but 60K EUR per year seems to be "normal" pay for such a profile and offering above that hasn't helped us. We're having trouble even finding relevant people to open up the conversation with. I am inter…

Good enough will be by definition, the minimum salary at which somebody is willing to do that work for you. There's no a priori number that is appropriate, and it has nothing to do at all with the level of studies of your candidate, only with the job market.

If there are few candidates, of course you'll have to pay a lot of money.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#254

Post by jacquesm » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #214

jacquesm wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not hard to understand: it's illegal. If someone restricts your movement against your will then depending on how much force they are prepared to bring to bear they should let you go or suffer the consequences. There is nothing symbolical about this, it is actual kidnapping.

OK, it's actual kidnapping. And it's illegal. Now walk me through this: 1. you are held hostage in a home invasion. You kill a kidnapper. The police won't arrest you (in the Netherlands - maybe other European countries they will, I don't know many details of all EU countries - but this is just for argument's sake anyway). Most likely you will not be convicted of anything (depending on the exact circumstances). 2. you…

You're setting up an elaborate false dichotomy.

If they tape your hands together it is probably game over anyway, short of you being McGuiver. But before they tape your hands together they will have to resort to force and I'd be more than happy to escalate that gradually right up to the point where they'll fuck off. And if they don't that's their problem, you have a right to defend yourself against attackers with proportional force.

Stabbing someone in the eye sounds like it is a step too far especially since you have the option to threaten with the knife first. Holding someone against their will is not a 'play crime' but a very serious one.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#255

Post by jacquesm » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

dnomad wrote: post #160

jacquesm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with France is the employment laws. Start-ups in other countries don't have this problem to the same extent. The secondary problem is that there is a lot of capital floating around in France with 'strings attached', great to get you going, but a huge problem later on.

People like to make a big deal of France's employment laws like there are some extraordinary overwhelming problem that businesses must struggle to overcome. This is silly. France is the 5th largest economy in the world. Finding highly educated, hard-working engineers is straightforwards thanks to the coordination between the government employment agencies and the excellent universities. Just like in America or anywhe…

> People like to make a big deal of France's employment laws like there are some extraordinary overwhelming problem that businesses must struggle to overcome.

For small start-ups these problems can be debilitating. For large companies they're a non-issue, they can afford it. But when you're somewhere between 10 and 20 employees this can be a real problem. To pretend there is no problem is causing the problem to persist. Source: know a lot of French start-ups, have seen more than one struggling with letting go of people that do not perform once outside of their trial period.

The size of France's economy has nothing to do with any of this. What is telling is the average pay of very good French developers, which is a small fraction of what they get abroad.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#256

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

mayniac wrote: post #251

flaie wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, there's a lot of cool stuff going on in Paris, but seriously it's underpaid for the price you have to pay to live there. From where I live I could work in Paris with the same commute time than I do by working in Luxembourg, but I get a better paycheck. Renting a 2 bedroom costs 700€ a month where I live, in Paris it would cost 2 to 3 times this. I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", thi…

>I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London Not by much [1][2], and rent is worse in London[3]. I think income tax is fairly comparable. From personal experience the same salary goes further in Paris and quality of life is better than in London, although I never officially worked in Paris so can't comment too much. The night…

[deleted]

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#257

Post by ekianjo » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #151

ekianjo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is poor evidence to support your points. And what about Switzerland that has very low union membership, have pretty much 40 hours weeks, no child labor, and the highest compensation across Europe despite having no minimum wage? It does not add up if we follow your narrative.

Switzerland is an exceptional country that has a political system far removed from the rest of the world. Democracy in Switzerland is so direct that there is a much higher level of engagement of the voters with the issues at stake. You can't take something that works in Switzerland out of that context and then apply it to some other country with the arguement 'it works in Switzerland'.

Of course you can. The above narrative clearly implied that unions are the motor of social progress while it is blantantly false. Economic development is what brings social progress. And the richest countries in the world are the ones with the best working conditions, regardless of unions power.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#258

Post by baud147258 » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

kakwa_ wrote: post #195

pilooch wrote: post #41

I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor relies on statistics (sound like my story is...). For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov tax…

CIR is a huge joke, it doesn't help small companies that much. Big companies are far better at collecting it than start-ups. On paper, CIR is for research and development efforts, basically it's for efforts that improve the state of the art. But in practice CIR is a tax break/subvention in disguise for medium to big french companies like Orange, Thales, bnpparibas... Just to give you an idea, at one of my former job,…

Regarding the CIR abuse, in my first internship at Bull, my colleagues had to log a part of their time as "research", whatever they were doing (usually maintenance or development), in order to claim for CIR.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#259

Post by CamTin » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #250

Pandabob wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this for real? I mean is this common? That's €240k, which is starting to near SF levels of pay. I've got a hard time believing this but will look into it more thoroughly. As a data scientist in Finland, I've been under the impression that the best places for a developer in terms of compensation in Europe are Switzerland, Norway and London (if one gets a good contracting gig there).

Hourly contractor, so you don't get any of the social safety net, you have to arrange your own pension, no pay on holiday, no sick days, no company car, no company laptop. You have to take care of all that yourself. A little calculation for your average senior developer in a corporate for-profit environment. On average you can do about 1850 billable hours a year, which means you are taking 7 weeks off for holiday, il…

Is it really that common for French developers to get a company car? What on earth is it for? Driving around in meatspace to meet clients for consulting-firm type gigs?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#260

Post by pjc50 » Mon, May 28, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #219

IMTDb wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is below France median salary. If you think you can get away with that, you either : - Have developers that are actually not that good - Have good developers that will realise that you are vastly underpaying them and will jump ship Salaries in France are lower than in the US, but if you think good developers are settling for remunerations below the median salary of the country they live in, you will get a wake u…

I'm in the UK (not France) and I make ~3050EUR a month (pre tax), I take home after tax ~2400EUR. I've been making money from selling code since 1996 and a full time developer over a decade. While my salary would be low in London (I'd be worth at least another 10-15K down there) in the North of England and particularly where I live that gives me an excellent standard of living, rent on a decent sized two bed is US Sa…

"Purchasing power parity" is extremely important for comparing these things, especially when it comes to housing. I get the impression that Silicon Valley is a place where $100k isn't quite enough to not have to share accomodation. It's certainly the case that London-weighted salaries don't make up for London-weighted house prices.

One of these days remote working will start to make a difference in this inequality.