Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 264 posts

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#251

Post by kasey_junk »

tptacek wrote: post #246
kasey_junk wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a bit of a misrepresentation of the problem though? The genetic problems that bulldogs exhibit aren't results of the traits you mention, but of conformance to a breed standard and the trends of a very small minority of bulldog owners (those that show them). Unfortunately, that small minority drives the cost of bulldogs and thus drives the breeders. If the bulldog standard was revised to a healthier expecta…

I'm uncertain of that. American bulldogs, for instance, are much more demanding than English bulldogs. Part of what you're buying in a bulldog is a low-energy dog.

American bulldogs are specifically bred for 2 traits against what you mentioned size & energy. So I think that is largely a bad counter example.

Granted I have no idea about dog breeding but you can see in the history of the bulldog itself that it is getting more exaggerated in the traits that make it less healthy. Do we know if they are getting more companionable?

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#252

Post by divbit »

gerbilly wrote: post #236
Nursie wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, are you qualified to know if your dog was not in "some" degree of respiratory distress? And again, your dog might have been ok. Hell, you might have got a classical pug with a longer snout and few issues. The problem is that there are vast numbers being bred and sold that do suffer from these problems, and no amount of exercise is going to help them. This is a solvable problem, if people stop selecting for d…

>Firstly, are you qualified to know if your dog was not in "some" degree of respiratory distress? I had a little red dog when I was a kid. A mutt,a little larger than a pug, with short legs. She would run alongside me while I rode my bike, say at 15km/h. One time she ran till she collapsed. I felt really bad for not noticing that she was running too hard. She had so much heart I think she would have run herself nearl…

15 km/h is quite fast

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#253

Post by flukus »

weavie wrote: post #46

Not just Pugs. I had a German Shepherd. Beautiful dog, but everyone who I met who had had a German Shepherd in the past told me their dog had to be put down around 10 years of age due to their back legs failing. Our dog didn't even make it to 10. She died of heart failure at 7. According to the vet this is another common problem with the breed. I well never get a pure breed again.

You can get things like hip replacements for dogs now, but it isn't cheap. We had a knee replacement for our rottweiler that cost about $10K all up, but he was only 4 when it happened, had he been 8 we probably wouldn't have paid.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#254

Post by tptacek »

kasey_junk wrote: post #251
tptacek wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncertain of that. American bulldogs, for instance, are much more demanding than English bulldogs. Part of what you're buying in a bulldog is a low-energy dog.

American bulldogs are specifically bred for 2 traits against what you mentioned size & energy. So I think that is largely a bad counter example. Granted I have no idea about dog breeding but you can see in the history of the bulldog itself that it is getting more exaggerated in the traits that make it less healthy. Do we know if they are getting more companionable?

You're right, I don't know, but it was my understanding that the "healthier" modern bulldog breeds are also much more active.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#255

Post by rickdale »

flukus wrote: post #253
weavie wrote: post #46

Not just Pugs. I had a German Shepherd. Beautiful dog, but everyone who I met who had had a German Shepherd in the past told me their dog had to be put down around 10 years of age due to their back legs failing. Our dog didn't even make it to 10. She died of heart failure at 7. According to the vet this is another common problem with the breed. I well never get a pure breed again.

You can get things like hip replacements for dogs now, but it isn't cheap. We had a knee replacement for our rottweiler that cost about $10K all up, but he was only 4 when it happened, had he been 8 we probably wouldn't have paid.

Holy cow! As a Rotty owner myself (beautiful Ruby),and shes had plenty of damn problems, but 10k, holy shmoly man, I can afford it too, but ahhh, thats so killer. For the record, I probably woulda done it too.

List of problems: suffered from Panosteitis until she was 2, tore ACL when 1.5 years old, had eye entropy surgery. The toughest was the ACL. Shes 7 now, suffers from pretty terrible arthritis which I combat with different stuff.

Tomorrow, my brother is taking his doberman shipped to the US from Serbia 3 hours away to the doggie dentist, where he has the most fucked up teeth you have ever seen. They are made of glass. My brother is already in over 7g's on the teeth, the dog is about to turn 2...

Anyways, you are a great human being and I am glad rottys are getting love like that.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#256

Post by flukus »

rickdale wrote: post #255
flukus wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get things like hip replacements for dogs now, but it isn't cheap. We had a knee replacement for our rottweiler that cost about $10K all up, but he was only 4 when it happened, had he been 8 we probably wouldn't have paid.

Holy cow! As a Rotty owner myself (beautiful Ruby),and shes had plenty of damn problems, but 10k, holy shmoly man, I can afford it too, but ahhh, thats so killer. For the record, I probably woulda done it too. List of problems: suffered from Panosteitis until she was 2, tore ACL when 1.5 years old, had eye entropy surgery. The toughest was the ACL. Shes 7 now, suffers from pretty terrible arthritis which I combat wit…

This particular dog made himself an inside one and never quite realized he was too big to be a lapdog. We never had to ask him to do something, when the car was going out the gate for instance, he would wander up the stairs where he knew he was supposed to be without prompting. Later after I moved away he would play passive aggressive when I visited, ignoring me but betrayed by his waging tail banging on the ground.

I can't say we would have done the same for most other dogs we've had, but this one was special and we got another 8 years out of him.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#257

Post by tallanvor »

Nursie wrote: post #91
divbit wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok I will take the bait - breathing, especially over the course of lets say ~45 minute run should definitely have some relation to the part of anatomy the article was talking about (specifically, the vets are claiming that the smashed nose shape makes it harder for them to breath, in relation to other dog breeds). Surely being able to breathe correctly is necessary to run for 45-50 minutes continuously? What I am cla…

They're arguing that you shouldn't buy a pug as at the moment because a large proportion of the population of pugs will suffer terrible health problems That you had a single individual that you believe did not suffer from the issues related to extreme brachycephaly doesn't really tell us much. The problems are only partly related to inbreeding - selecting for dogs with such squashed heads is bad in and of itself.

Anyone looking to get a dog should do their research before getting a dog.

I have a pug. I made the decision after doing a lot of research and finding a breeder that clearly understood the health issues that pugs face, and was able to explain what he and other breeders have been doing to improve the health of the breed, including what factors they look at when deciding which pugs are healthy enough to bear/sire a litter.

My pug is getting close to 4 years old now. She did have to have surgery to remove some skin and to change the shape of her lower eyelids because hair would rub against the eyes, which caused pigment to be pushed up. It's still a common problem with pugs, and breeders know it. The worst case scenario for my pug at this point is that I'll need to put an ointment containing ciclosporin in her eyes daily for the rest of her life.

Beyond that, her vet is extremely happy with her health and doesn't expect her to have any of the common health issues pugs face. Yes, I have to be careful about letting her get overheated when it's hot out, but other than that, she has no breathing issues. I watch her weight carefully since pugs are greedy little things. Many people think a pug is supposed to be fat, so a 6.3kg female pug looks very skinny to them.

There are still plenty of unscrupulous breeders who don't care about the health of pugs, but spending time to make sure you aren't getting a pug from one of them will put them out of business, and leave the breeders who are doing a good job restoring the health of the breed.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#258

Post by gadders »

tptacek wrote: post #231
jacamat wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we invented dogs. So while it is a good morale argument that breeding co-dependency into a species and infantilizing an otherwise very self-sufficient predator is a bad thing, its probably not going to happen. At least not in our lifetime. Which brings us back to improving the standards for breeding that we have today. Some dogs, such as Dalmatians and Bulldogs, are genetic atrocities and should not be bred in…

I don't know why people buy dalmatians. My only experience with the breed was my childhood friend's dalmation, who was an asshole and bit me. But I do know why people buy bulldogs. They're easygoing. They have high medical and upkeep maintenance costs, but very low day-to-day costs. They're suitable for families with small children or other pets. They're grateful for play time when it's available, but not harmed by p…

Get a whippet. Sleep all day with a few nutty runs in park.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#259

Post by DistractedInNY »

weavie wrote: post #46

Not just Pugs. I had a German Shepherd. Beautiful dog, but everyone who I met who had had a German Shepherd in the past told me their dog had to be put down around 10 years of age due to their back legs failing. Our dog didn't even make it to 10. She died of heart failure at 7. According to the vet this is another common problem with the breed. I well never get a pure breed again.

German shepherds frequently carry the gene for Degenerative Myelopathy. Genetic testing for it has only become available in the past 5-7ish years. A reputable breeder will test their dogs for this prior to breeding now that the test is available.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#260

Post by criddell »

milesf wrote: post #240
criddell wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the dogs I have right now is a pug and it is by far the best dog I have ever had. I wish I could reliably get pug personality and behavior in a mutt. For me, one of the benefits of getting a dog of a specific breed is that it's a known quantity.

Yep, you're correct that purebreds have a more predictable pattern of temperament and known health challenges (all dogs have problems. Some have more problems than others). Pugs are very smart, and can be difficult to train unless it's done at an early age. Unfortunately (okay, not really :) our two pugs are so stubborn, they often decide "no, I'm not going to listen to you". I've owned pugs, pekingese, airdales, yor…

I wouldn't describe my pug as smart... but he's very, very happy.

I live in central Texas, so we have to deal with very hot weather. Dogs do get acclimatized to some degree, but we have to wait until the sun goes down to walk him. Even if he could deal with the hot air during the day, the temperature of the sidewalk and roads would burn a pug's feet.

Post reply on HN