Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

andychase.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 271 posts

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#251

Post by logicallee »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #239
logicallee wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing anti-developer in what I wrote. (Or the original reply.) If I received such an email in response to my own question I would be reassured. I'm not towing/toeing the company line here. There's simply nothing wrong here. -- EDIT: in reply to your followup, no, I googled and it's some Trump spokesperson? (communications director). Basically I took it (in this comment I added this edit to) that you were sa…

What is problematic about what you wrote, is that it requires absolute confidence in the good behavior of the company; that it affords no protection to developers from malicious behavior by the company; and that it does not afford developers the same trust on an equal footing.

I disagree, as a practical matter none of what you wrote is true if I received this email. As a developer.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#252

Post by NetMonkey »

x1798DE wrote: post #219
embwbam wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I usually do in this case is redline the contract and sign it. (Meaning, edit the clauses you don't like in an obvious fashion. Tell them you've done this.) They will often not want to go to the trouble of going back and forth with the contract and will just accept it.

> Tell them you've done this. Pretty sure you don't have to tell them if you return the contract to them modified and they sign it. They weren't going to tell you all the objectionable parts of the contract, so why give them information you're not required to give? (IANAL)

IANAL either, but from experience everything that can be seen as shady is very dangerous if it comes to a court case. It makes you look like the bad guy, and can easily be used by a good lawyer to remove focus from what should really matter.

You want everything to be as clear as possible, and with no obvious points that can be called into doubt. Even if you end up winning, you don't want a court case that drags out for multiple years, with devastating legal costs to cover while its going on.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#253

Post by hatfieej »

dpark wrote: post #234
Tenhundfeld wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. There's a huge gray area in terms of incentive/benefit value, but it's clearly illegal if there are no advantages offered by the new contract and it only benefits the employer. In other words, it would be clearly illegal for an employer to say…

> I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. I would consider new council. I'm fairly certain that continued employment is enough "incentive" to make the contract legally binding. If you're an at-will employee, they can fire you at any moment, so any new contract seems as enforceable as…

I've gone through this before and the law is very clear that continued employment is not a valid compensation for changing the terms of your employment. The original employment agreement was the contract you are bound by. Coming to work each day is just both of you continuing to abide by the original contract. As you mentioned, the other side is the at-will part. It's pretty easy for them to just decide to dismiss you.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#254

Post by chrisbennet »

A contract needs a couple of things in order to be valid:

1. A meeting of minds i.e. both parties agree on something.

2. Consideration; usually money. (This is why you sometimes see donated things sold for a dollar.)

When faced with signing a new contract that asks for more of something, I'd recommend asking for consideration of some sort. (1)

"Oh, new contract? Let's talk about my new salary."

(1) At least if you're an in-demand software developer.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#255

Post by fapjacks »

dom0 wrote: post #63
owlninja wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this common in contracts??

It's a standard clause, but depending on jurisdiction it's at least partially invalid anyway.

California labor code explicitly contains exceptions to the work you do, which basically says that any work you do on your own equipment, during your own time, that is not related to the work you do during the day[0], cannot be usurped by the company using those broad, awful IP clauses. Anyway, this California labor code exception is why Silicon Valley exists in California and nowhere else.

[0] And often, I'm told, companies have the upper hand here, because they can often show that almost anything is related to their particular activities.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#256

Post by adekok »

hluska wrote: post #236
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how I did anything to your argument. The original poster showed the email, the founder responded saying they're going to review the contracts because what's in there is not their intent, figure it out and then add a FAQ. You replied to the founder with a simple regurgitation of the issue and nothing more. The issue the founder just said they will be addressing in the comment you replied to. So I wasn't…

You seem to be so focused on making your point that you have stopped reading the comments you are replying to. At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now. Rather, the parent made some reasonable points: A.) Smart developers would not sign shitty contracts. B.) When a smart developer asked questions about the contract, his questions were flat out ignored. C.) Now that there is an outcry, the f…

> At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now

BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now.

And then there's this bizarre comment by him:

> > what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder?

I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me.

> > Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology

That's a telling level of projection. He's entirely unable to read English text as written.

Instead, he's like the 1950's fuddy-duddy who sees a picture of two people hugging, and immediately concludes that they're about to go fornicate as unmarried adults.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#257

Post by logfromblammo »

ABCLAW wrote: post #249
logfromblammo wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, it was not advice, as I am not a lawyer. It is my opinion. If the entire legal profession chooses to hold a different opinion, and enforces it upon one another via their cartel, that is their prerogative. It will not affect my opinions upon what I would consider to be fair or just . Sharing my opinion may well put you on the losing side of a lawsuit, but I don't judge my value as a person according to m…

I doubt you have ill intentions in mind. The idea that one's personal conception of 'fair' and 'just' is sufficient to espouse how the justice system should work is common, but often misleading, as it is in this case. Your statement on consideration, for instance, is incorrect. As is the leading statement in the post I replied to. Neither of those were constructed as statements of opinion. In any event, I hope that r…

Please do not equate the current legal system with a justice system. The system has to be based on law, and not justice, because everyone may have a different opinion on what is just and fair.

The courts system may seek out justice whenever it is possible to do so, but in my anecdotal experience, and in my exposure from [likely biased] sources, it declines to make the attempt, and seeks out simple expedience instead.

In cases where a jury may be employed to decide the outcome, the public opinion on how justice should work is relevant. If you are ever offered a potentially abusive contract, by all means consult a lawyer if you intend to proceed with it. But if you're ever on a jury hearing a contract dispute case, for the love of justice, please refuse to enforce a fundamentally unfair contract, where the party that drafted it refused to negotiate--or even explain--any of its terms.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#258

Post by danielweber »

st3v3r wrote: post #224
danielweber wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why everyone should demand to see the IP agreement during negotiation.

This is why they should be outright banned.

Employers need to be able to make sure they own the code you write for them. Otherwise nothing works.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#259

Post by danielweber »

hatfieej wrote: post #253
dpark wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. I would consider new council. I'm fairly certain that continued employment is enough "incentive" to make the contract legally binding. If you're an at-will employee, they can fire you at any moment, so any new contract seems as enforceable as…

I've gone through this before and the law is very clear that continued employment is not a valid compensation for changing the terms of your employment. The original employment agreement was the contract you are bound by. Coming to work each day is just both of you continuing to abide by the original contract. As you mentioned, the other side is the at-will part. It's pretty easy for them to just decide to dismiss yo…

> I've gone through this before and the law is very clear that continued employment is not a valid compensation for changing the terms of your employment.

Please do not say things like this. A worker in Massachusetts, Illinois, or New York may read what you said, believe you because you said "the law is very clear," sign a new agreement thinking they got one over, and then roll out the other side to realize "oh, shit, that guy on Hacker News didn't know what he was talking about."

Whether continued employment counts as consideration is a state by state issue.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#260

Post by danielweber »

chrisbennet wrote: post #254

A contract needs a couple of things in order to be valid: 1. A meeting of minds i.e. both parties agree on something. 2. Consideration; usually money. (This is why you sometimes see donated things sold for a dollar.) When faced with signing a new contract that asks for more of something, I'd recommend asking for consideration of some sort. (1) "Oh, new contract? Let's talk about my new salary." (1) At least if you're…

Continued employment counts as consideration in many states.
Post reply on HN