Why Do Americans Stink at Math? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#251

Post by closeparen » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

tmptmp wrote: post #59

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

US society/culture in general is the main cause of this problem as most people here do not value math. Math requires deep, creative and original thinking and thinking is rather difficult to perform act. It seems that the US culture derides analytical thinking in general, with many popular public figures flaunting their "inability to do math" as some sort of great achievement and sending out a loud and clear messages,…

>Math requires deep, creative and original thinking and thinking

That is absolutely not true of anything the average non-math-major has ever been exposed to under the heading "math."

It's rote symbol manipulation requiring diligence, practice, and attention to detail. American K12 math education asks for fast and reliable algorithm execution, not insight.

Only math majors and attendees of a few exceptional private high schools will ever seriously engage with proofs.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#252

Post by blahi » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 5:31 AM UTC

johncolanduoni wrote: post #248

blahi wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the selection bias relevant to the discussion? The fact remains.

Because the OP was laying this at the feet of ethnicity, which I feel (at least in many cases) is far from the only possible explanation.

No, he was comparing people in the US vs. their continents of origin. He doesn't try to explain why math skills differ. He simply states that they do.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#253

Post by munin » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 5:33 AM UTC

johncolanduoni wrote: post #246

munin wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's just very little domestic interest in math and physics, despite both feeding into rather favorable job markets Oh yeah? What jobs are there for a physics PhD to do physics in that isn't academia? Government research lab? Military aerospace contractor?

Both quantitative finance and more general data science draw heavily from physics PhDs (you can see this if you look at job listings for these jobs; physics is almost always listed next to math in the list of desired PhD degrees). Depending on area there can also be a significant number of industry pure-research positions available; quantum information is a good example. As long as you are willing to go into industry…

Why would you get a PhD in physics if you would go into data science? Just get a data science job. Why would you think that someone that spent six years of their life thinking about light, energy, matter and the universe would be satisfied thinking about graphics to show the results of A/B testing an advertisement?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#254

Post by 58 » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 6:29 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #234

pessimizer wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By failing at reading comprehension. There's a vast difference between public school students and school-aged children. In Chicago, only 10% of public school students are white[1], with a 45% white population[2] (for example.) Conflating the two things seems almost willfully deceptive. edit: [1] http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Pages/Stats_and_fac... [2] http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/171400…

What's wilfully deceptive is pointing to one city and claiming it is relevant to national statistics. The WP Article assets a majority of public school students IN THE US are in poverty, that is objectively false. So the reading comprehension problem isn't with the article I cited.

The WP article isn't really central to my point -- that outside factors have more to do with poor math performance than anything happening inside the schools. I worked in a public school as a tutor for kids slightly behind their grade level (not with the kids who were really struggling) and I have plenty of anecdata from that experience. Kids with drug-addicted parents, kids with parents in prison, kids not having enough food at night, medicated kids, obese kids, a kid who had to move mid school year because his house was shot up in a driveby, etc.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#255

Post by Pitarou » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

Well, I clicked on the link, and it just said, "You have to log in to view this article." Are you seriously suggesting I have to register with the New York Times before I'm permitted to share an opinion?

(just kidding)

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#256

Post by dwheeler » Sat, Oct 29, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

dylanfw wrote: post #151

vixen99 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whitehead and Russell famously took several hundred pages in Principia Mathematica to prove the validity of the proposition 1+1=2. What is it that kids are understanding that W&R took much pain over? Understanding equates to learning the rules and when and where they can be applied. That's where drilling comes in.

> Whitehead and Russell famously took several hundred pages in Principia Mathematica to prove the validity of the proposition 1+1=2. What is it that kids are understanding that W&R took much pain over? W&R proved 1+1=2 in their axiomatic system . It wasn't done to prove once and for all that 1+1 is in fact 2, but to show that their system produced mathematical truths. The truth of 1+1=2 was already assumed and unders…

Godel did not destroy formalization. He showed that there would always be true things that cannot be proved. It's true that the axioms used by Whitehead and Russell are not the axioms usually used today, but PM is still an important book that has influenced much work through today and Beyond. You might find this website interesting, which formalizes axioms and then proves many things from them: http://us.metamath.org/index.html

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#257

Post by johncolanduoni » Sun, Oct 30, 2016, 12:13 AM UTC

munin wrote: post #253

johncolanduoni wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both quantitative finance and more general data science draw heavily from physics PhDs (you can see this if you look at job listings for these jobs; physics is almost always listed next to math in the list of desired PhD degrees). Depending on area there can also be a significant number of industry pure-research positions available; quantum information is a good example. As long as you are willing to go into industry…

Why would you get a PhD in physics if you would go into data science? Just get a data science job. Why would you think that someone that spent six years of their life thinking about light, energy, matter and the universe would be satisfied thinking about graphics to show the results of A/B testing an advertisement?

If all you want is a career in data science, sure. But with a Physics PhD you (a) get those six years to study physics, which many people enjoy and (b) get to take a shot at getting a research gig, and fall back on a solid foundation in a good career track. Not to mention a PhD makes your chances of not having to do something as boring as A/B testing advertisements markedly higher.

If getting an art degree meant you could try and become an artist (with the same astronomically low chances of success you see today) and then immediately fall back on a solid career if you fail, don't you think it would represent a pretty good option? If you enjoy physics or math, you already live in a world with that possibility.