Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges • Hacker News Board

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#251

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 3:56 PM UTC

gscott wrote: post #57

rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The CEO of a small internet company almost certainly has a hand in everything the company does. The CEO of a large corporation has no idea what the line workers are doing.[1] If a bunch of Yahoo employees had gone off and run as sex-trafficking site off Yahoo's servers, they wouldn't go arrest Marissa Mayer. Not because "lobbying" but because that would be stupid and unreasonable.…

You are talking about 5,000 current employees being fired and many employees who were fired for reporting it. If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important.

> If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important.

Yes, but establishing the former (which is a crime) as opposed to the latter (which is an internal business matter for Wells Fargo) is the tricky part.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#252

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

cwillu wrote: post #248

empthought wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is precisely a moral judgement. Moral judgements are a human responsibility. The question is whether or not we want to be a society that views people's bodies and sexual access to them as a commodity to be bought and sold. I find it baffling that anyone would laud this condition after giving it a few moments of compassionate reflection.

Consider the possibility that a few moments of compassionate reflection have lead Alice to conclude that when Bob says he loves what he does, it's not because Mallory is forcing him to say that. It's all well and good to say that it's against your own morals, but as soon as you start defending that on the basis of the consequences, you're conceding the "but it's just morally wrong!" argument. And in general, we (okay…

So one happy prostitute is worth a thousand unhappy prostitutes, gotcha.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#253

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #243

empthought wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/19/my_lessons_in_prostitution_h... "People who see prostitution as something which exists on a number of different, exclusive and distinct class-related levels are people who do not understand the interrelated nature of it, and some of the people ignorant of the shifting nature of prostitution are actually prostitutes and prostitutors themselves."

>some of the people ignorant of the shifting nature of prostitution are actually prostitutes and prostitutors themselves Sounds awful paternalistic. Have you considered the possibility that people who make choices you disagree with have agency?

Absolutely, which is why I would like to hold people who choose to purchase sex accountable for their human rights violations. They have agency; they have the choice not to purchase sex and yet they do so anyway.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#254

Post by cwillu » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

empthought wrote: post #252

cwillu wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the possibility that a few moments of compassionate reflection have lead Alice to conclude that when Bob says he loves what he does, it's not because Mallory is forcing him to say that. It's all well and good to say that it's against your own morals, but as soon as you start defending that on the basis of the consequences, you're conceding the "but it's just morally wrong!" argument. And in general, we (okay…

So one happy prostitute is worth a thousand unhappy prostitutes, gotcha.

[Sorry, ninja edited underneath you.]

And all the more if it's a billion prostitutes in an eternity of misery supported by a malevolent AI!

Alternatively, Alice could consider the possibility that Bob is not, in fact, an idiot.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#255

Post by ZoF » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

Anderkent wrote: post #232

ZoF wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you're replying to is from the UK. Why the anti-American sentiment?

Eh, apologies. Mostly a cheap shot. It does seem to me people in USA are more prudish about sex and overprotective of children, to the point of denying the underage any agency. But it's a more nuanced discussion, and it's easier to write a snark.

Yep, I generally agree with you; we are raising weak/sheltered individuals, and not just in America.

Shielding people from reality doesn't change it, just makes it's ultimate realization more painful.

I've just been seeing a bit too much 'America is evil/bad' lately, consider me triggered :).

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#256

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

cwillu wrote: post #254

empthought wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one happy prostitute is worth a thousand unhappy prostitutes, gotcha.

[Sorry, ninja edited underneath you.] And all the more if it's a billion prostitutes in an eternity of misery supported by a malevolent AI! Alternatively, Alice could consider the possibility that Bob is not, in fact, an idiot.

[deleted]

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#257

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #240

empthought wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, in that case we had no right to prosecute the Holocaust, and saying that we did is a worse violation than the Holocaust...

Wait, what? You honestly went with Godwin's law on this? There are people in the sex industry who enjoy their industry. There were no people on the receiving end of the holocaust who enjoyed that. If you can't grasp the difference you should not try to discuss anything.

The question was whether to "dictate someone elses values on human rights" consists a worse violation than the human rights violation itself; it's pretty obvious the answer is "no." In fact the entire concept of human rights relies on there being some possibility of an objective standard of "human rights" that does not depend on an individual's choice or opinion, even if that individual's choice or opinion biases them to permit the violation of their own human rights.

You think prostitution is not a violation of human rights. I do. It's pretty much that simple. But clearly what specific individuals used to think about freedom from slavery, or the right of Jewish people to exist, or the right to basic dignity and access to food and livelihood, has no bearing on whether or not these things are human rights. They just are.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#258

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

psyc wrote: post #200

random_upvoter wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heart of the matter is simple: if you buy the services of a prostitute, you have little means of knowing his/her backstory. She may be doing this willingly, or she may have been coerced. So you are willingly taking the risk that you're raping somebody. The conclusion is that it is an immoral act to visit a prostitute. And that's all you need to know really. Oh and here's another dirty little secret for you: a goo…

I don't think so. I have 2 close friends who used to be prostitutes, and I'm pretty sure both of them would eye-roll hard at this. All you're doing is willfully choosing the focus on the dark instances, regardless of their actual prevalence, and try to claim that the whole picture is like that across the board.

[deleted]

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#259

Post by tuxracer » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

empthought wrote: post #133

tuxracer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I coerce someone into cleaning my house without their consent that isn't shameful? Seems coercing someone to do anything without their consent is shameful. If someone only consents to cleaning a house if they're paid enough money to do it that isn't "without their consent" by any definition of the word I'm aware of. It's unclear to me why sex workers should be specially called out and stigmatized.

The sex workers should not be called out nor stigmatized. Their patrons should be.

Based on what you've said so should the patrons of any service if the worker is providing a service they wouldn't otherwise be providing if they weren't being paid to do so.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#260

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #238

oarsinsync wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sentence has structurally the same form. If you think it's ridiculous, it can only be because you think there is something special about sex > As Dworkin wrote a long time ago, "in prostitution, no woman stays whole. It is impossible to use a human body in the way women's bodies are used in prostitution and to have a whole human being at the end of it, or in the middle of it, or close to the beginning of it. I…

Then replace selling fruit with backbreaking manual labor: coal mining, digging ditches, whatever. Something that causes real and permanent damage to one's body over time. Is selling your labor in such a way morally wrong?

No, but purchasing it might be. Employers can mitigate their culpability by including health and disability insurance, and workplace condition standards. They typically only do this when required by government regulation, though.

And in the end there's a qualitative difference between purchasing access to a person's time and labor, and purchasing access to their mouth, vagina, and anus.