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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#251

Post by toyg »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #246
toyg wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Change the level of prestige and you change the influx of new recruits. Who can change the level of prestige? Upper and middle classes. Why would they do that, when the system works just fine for them? Nobody is legally coerced, and still cannon fodder is overwhelmingly provided by the "right" people. From a certain perspective, it's a beautiful system.

> "Who can change the level of prestige?" We all can, and we can start by resisting the narrative to refer to those involved in preemptive war as 'heroes'. There's nothing heroic about playing the role of the aggressor. Furthermore, we need to find a way to better engage with those who have taken part in war so that we can learn from their experiences. The more we can see war for what it is, the less likely we'll be…

You also have to design and pay for alternative careers and education streams. It's not a coincidence that the countries who most value military careers are often ones where higher education is extremely expensive or restricted.

That will mean raising taxes and fighting tax evasion, which might mean less "free money" from VC gluts.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#252

Post by notahacker »

ccvannorman wrote: post #188

""The agent firmly believed Mandela was in the pocket of Communist Russia and was planning to incite the Indian population in the Natal region, where he was based, to rise up."" Given ubiquitous surveillance and increasing state power, how long before average citizens start getting locked up because a single cowboy at an agency "firmly believes" they are a threat?

Never mind "ubiquitous surveillance", this has always happened.

And given that Mandela was a member of a banned organization that was wanted by his own government for attempting to start armed rebellion using weapons (acquired from from sympathtic communist-aligned powers), it wasn't exactly as if the whim of a single agent was the main factor behind his detention (or the CIA's ultimately unfounded belief in what might happen if he succeeded)

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#253

Post by ZenoArrow »

april1stislame wrote: post #242
ZenoArrow wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you treat downvotes as bad. My own comments on this thread have received a fair number of both upvotes and downvotes. I consider when that happens (assuming I haven't been overly antagonistic, which I don't think I have been) that I've hit a raw nerve. I could be wrong, but alternatively I could've said something someone isn't willing to hear. That can be useful feedback in its own right (though I prefer the…

Yes, you described the problem very well. Nice to see you are aware of contributing to it.

I'm aware I can say things that people don't like, yes, but in some cases it's more beneficial to have a respectful debate than to stay silent. If I'm not prepared to listen to opposing opinions then I'll be robbing myself of getting a deeper understanding.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#254

Post by IsaacL »

WayneBro wrote: post #237
467568985476 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please go into more detail. Start with the evidence.

Could we start with asking you what kind of evidence would actually satisfy you? How much effort are you prepared to expend in questioning this? Honestly. What do you need to just to consider the small possibility that your view of things is the incorrect one? Do you want macro/micro/historical/current evidence and do you expect such evidence to be easily disseminated here or are you just asking without any of these…

Not the OP, but it's sunday afternoon and you've piqued my curiosity. I'm not opposed to conspiracy theories, but my view of the world is one of different groups competing for power without a guiding plan. I find it interesting reading about individual conspiracies and learning how the world really works, but in my view they eventually backfire on the people who instigate them.

Take the United Fruit Company - so they lobbied the US government to instigate a coup in Guatemala. That's devious. (I've just looked up the coup in more detail, and the consequences for Guatemala were horrendous, so I'd say the coup instigators were not merely devious, but outright evil).

Thing is, neither party benefited. The US got involved to prevent communism growing in its backyard, but ended up pissing off the entire region. The UFC wanted to protect its assets in Guatemala, but was forced by Eisenhower to divest them all 4 years later.

What's the grand pattern here? What's the motive behind all these conspiracy theories? Do they intentionally backfire, or are the people pulling the strings just short-sighted?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#255

Post by proksoup »

april1stislame wrote: post #233
proksoup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also curious to hear why c2the3rd is so confident about the ignorance displayed here and why silence instead of noise is the solution. Hacker news seems to do a pretty good job of at least up voting the majority thoughts, and perhaps with some effort by all of us we can respond intelligently to those popular thoughts and also get up voted. Even if ignorant, isn't it worth discussing and responding to if that's w…

>>> Hacker news seems to do a pretty good job of at least up voting the majority thoughts... And therein lies the problem. Echo chambers are only good at making you wish to be deaf, if even...

Hm, is it an echo chamber if the dissent to the majority is also present and up voted? I feel like you didn't read the second half of my comment or I don't understand what you mean.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#256

Post by lamontcg »

arca_vorago wrote: post #131
kangar00 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as we…

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality. The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one. Would you l…

You might be correct, depending on your definition of "shadow groups".

For example, George W. Bush initially got elected on a platform of non-intervention. There was, however, a strong core of Neocons in his administration, like Paul Wolfowitz. After 2001 the President switched directions completely and they became considerably more powerful and their lobbying probably directly led to the Iraq war.

But none of this is really hidden secrets.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#257

Post by ZenoArrow »

toyg wrote: post #251
ZenoArrow wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Who can change the level of prestige?" We all can, and we can start by resisting the narrative to refer to those involved in preemptive war as 'heroes'. There's nothing heroic about playing the role of the aggressor. Furthermore, we need to find a way to better engage with those who have taken part in war so that we can learn from their experiences. The more we can see war for what it is, the less likely we'll be…

You also have to design and pay for alternative careers and education streams. It's not a coincidence that the countries who most value military careers are often ones where higher education is extremely expensive or restricted. That will mean raising taxes and fighting tax evasion, which might mean less "free money" from VC gluts.

Putting aside the situation in developing countries, I'm suggesting making the changes closer to home.

In developed countries potential soldiers already have other options so it's not a question of making economic changes, it's a question of changing how we cut through the propaganda that glorifies soldiers. The only cases for soldiers as heroes are in cases of defending against an external aggressor or defending the helpless. Becoming a soldier does not automatically make you a hero, just as lawyers are not automatically heroes, it all depends on the causes they serve.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#258

Post by LyndsySimon »

calgoo wrote: post #249
ZenoArrow wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, even there, as the violence is being fueled by other countries in the region with large ties to oil. It is not the only thing that needs to change in that region (a proper Palestinian state that could control its own borders would also be a great step in the right direction), but it's something that the average person has some control over, so instead of sitting on our hands and watching the situation get worse…

Without Israel expanding their borders all the time? That would be a nice thing for once. Second thing to do: Stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel, which both empowers the instability of the reason.

> Without Israel expanding their borders all the time?

This seems like a fairly biased statement. In all cases that spring to mind - Gaza, the Golan Heights, and the West Bank - Israeli seized and occupied territory during wars in which they were the defenders.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#259

Post by april1stislame »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #253
april1stislame wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you described the problem very well. Nice to see you are aware of contributing to it.

I'm aware I can say things that people don't like, yes, but in some cases it's more beneficial to have a respectful debate than to stay silent. If I'm not prepared to listen to opposing opinions then I'll be robbing myself of getting a deeper understanding.

So, why comment if an downvote is enough, as you say?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#260

Post by wdr1 »

cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

I would agree the CIA is a reason, but I think it's faulty to call it the reason.

There are several factors at play, including European colonialism of the early 20th century, as well as the tendency to split countries in a divided fashion (e.g. India & Pakistan) as countries divested of those interests.

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