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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

151–160 of 297 posts

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#151
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course we don't call the Apartheid government "terrorists" for these crimes. Almost everyone agrees that the Apartheid government was horrible. Almost no one holds them up as a positive example. Conversely, almost everyone holds Mandela and his terrorist organization up as an example and as a hero despite them intentionally setting off bombs in civilian locations like shopping malls and restaurants.

From the biographies I read, they never put bombs in public, civilian locations. Only in strategic industrial/infrastructure locations, making sure there was not a person in place. But, of course I read that in biased biographies. Do you have source that a person was killed by these attacks?

I'm no expert. Mandela cofounded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Bombings has a list of atrocities committed by them. During most of them Mandela was in prison I believe. I don't know about his influence over the organization during that time or if he condemned these attacks, I'd guess he didn't but am happy to be proven wrong.

"five civilians were killed and 40 were injured when MK cadre Andrew Sibusiso Zondo detonated an explosive in a rubbish bin at a shopping centre shortly before Christmas."

"a bomb was detonated in a bar, killing three civilians and injuring 69"

" terror campaign continued with attacks on a series of soft targets, including a bank in Roodepoort in 1988, in which four civilians were killed and 18 injured. Also in 1988, a bomb outside a magistrate's court killed three. At the Ellis Park rugby stadium in Johannesburg, a car bomb killed two and injured 37 civilians. A multitude[14] of bombs at restaurants and fast food outlets, including Wimpy Bars,[15] and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people."

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as we…

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality. The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one. Would you l…

Please go into more detail. Start with the evidence.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#153
post #81

Given the serious effort CIA puts into destabilising regions (Lets not forget the large amounts of sources who said people were being ferried and paid to go to Kiev when the Ukrainian uprising was occuring) it would not surprise me very much if they were also behind the Britain "exit" from Europe, since that would cause an economic collapse of the EU and would remove a super-power from play. I feel like a conspiracy…

It's the workers who have been shafted by declining standards of living, stagnant wages, rising prices, false promises about the benefits of free trade agreements, and increased immigrant labor -- coupled with an increasingly bureaucratic EU organization that pushes more political change than economic/trade change. The citizens of Britain signed up for the EU when they saw it as a trade agreement that would benefit t…

the EU being overly bureaucratic is due to age, the UK system has the same issues.

our sovereignty is not important as long as we have the choice to leave in future, but the benefits awarded the middle/working/lower classes is unquestionable and we may not be awarded such luxury under a malevolent or overly 'for the rich' party. Rights are only rights until they aren't.

Workers rights in the UK are the best they've ever been, and better than those in the US, which is where our model seems to steer towards without EU guidance.

Quality of living (I'm guessing housing?) is bad in spite of the EU rules, not because of it.

We are awarded many luxuries and exceptions by the EU because of our status as one of the "core" members, if we renegotiate we don't have that. In addition trade agreements are not going to be in our favour unless with have something to barter with.

most of our industries are service/management layer, we're the middle people to a lot of things and without being a pivotal hub we may lose this and the foundation of British economy will be rocked, we need to produce something that the world cannot live without before making such threats.

Additional:

Without the EU being a unified block we do not have the clout to stand up to US bullying.

edited to remove condescension and provide only my points

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#154
post #100

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

> [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I also doubt anyone commenting here lives in a communist country, or has ever spent much time in one. I didn't downvote you, but this edit seriously tempted me. Your background is irrelevant. It is your arguments we have taken issue with. The replies you have gotten point out how flawed this idea is/was. We know what politics Mandela would come to push, because he eventually g…

Thanks to the CIA, Mandela became President only after the fall of the Berlin wall. So he saw what a disaster communism was.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#155
post #81

Given the serious effort CIA puts into destabilising regions (Lets not forget the large amounts of sources who said people were being ferried and paid to go to Kiev when the Ukrainian uprising was occuring) it would not surprise me very much if they were also behind the Britain "exit" from Europe, since that would cause an economic collapse of the EU and would remove a super-power from play. I feel like a conspiracy…

It may be for UK main street (what little there is left of it), but it may be a benefit for the City. Especially as Brussels is mulling more stringent banking regulations.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I find bizarre about 9/11 is that very few people seem to openly question why the World Trade Center was amongst the top targets that day. Perhaps if people looked a little deeper into what the WTO does it might help us make better decisions going forward. In the interest of balance, the situation on 9/11 wasn't completely the fault of the US. Saudi Arabia appears to have been the main driving force behind…

> It's the oil money that's fuelling the conflict on both sides, if we cut that out of the equation I'm confident we would find it much easier to work towards peace in the Middle East. I agree, though even if the US solved its energy problems today, we (i.e. the entire Western world) need to survive the generation or two of pretty angry Middle-Easterns seeking revenge for their destroyed homes and killed families, as…

I'm not sure if the wall street cronies wants to solve that, as it would basically be the execution squad for the petro-dollar.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality. The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one. Would you l…

Please go into more detail. Start with the evidence.

But the evidence is secret! :)

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what twisted mind is communism an acceptable proposition???

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. All of its implementations, however, have been seriously lacking, and perhaps it is unviable in practice; this does not mean the concept is unacceptable in theory.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal.

There clearly is. Everywhere it has been tried, it led to at least poverty and usually genocide. Communism has been far, far worse than nazism or fascism and holding national socialism as some sort of valuable ideal untainted by the reality is unacceptable almost everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are clearly incompetent about the subject. The "ideal" of communism and the practice of communism are not two different things. Communism is practiced precisely the way it is theoretically intended to work. Communism is a cleptocratic system of ruling and exploiting the manual labour and natural resources of any given territory inhabited by unambitious masses that largely lack individualism. The core of the syste…

You sound like an Ayn Rand soliloquy.

I've been told this a number of times. I've never read any Ayn Rand - probably should. I was, however, born and raised in communism, as were my parents, so I talk from experience.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#160
post #94
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did they "lose" Iraq? They successfully invaded the country, changed the regime, changed the military, the police, the government .. everything. Then they left. Iraq is in utter chaos, the US is doing just fine. How exactly did the US "lose" in Iraq?

Because the stated goal of that war was for the instilled government to survive and for democracy to transform the region. Not for the country to become destabilized with former military operatives to go into Syria and form the next great political catastrophe. That definitely wasn't a "win" long term.

That's completely different from winning or losing a war.

The events you describe don't affect the US's dominance at all.

The region's current turmoil is all internal. The US can just wait it out and then when it's all over, the winner will be weak and the US can just come in again any time and reset the whole thing.

So this doesn't affect the US's ability to "write" history.

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